What hardness for rifle loads ?

I have searched but didn't find an answer.
I'm loading 185gr. GC boolit for the 30-06 going around 1700 - 1800 fps.
What would be the hardness range I'm looking for ?
I have been casting WW/water dropping and WW/air cooling, what might be the hardness difference between the two.
I know there are variables but where do I start, is there a table somewhere ?

1700 to 1800 fps I have had good luck with alloy at 13 to 15 bhn. The velocity is not as criticle as the pressure. You can get that velocity at a wide pressure range depending on the powder burn rate you use. The lower the pressure the softer the alloy can be to still get good accuracy
WW now generally run about 10 air cooled. WW quenched if they are hot enough and you use ice water I have gotten them to over 20 bhn.

1700 to 1800 fps I have had good luck with alloy at 13 to 15 bhn. The velocity is not as criticle as the pressure. You can get that velocity at a wide pressure range depending on the powder burn rate you use. The lower the pressure the softer the alloy can be to still get good accuracy
WW now generally run about 10 air cooled. WW quenched if they are hot enough and you use ice water I have gotten them to over 20 bhn.Thanks,
I have been water dropping into room temp water.
Also using 18gr. 2400

Mike Venturino one of the writers of Handloader magazine uses linotype (22 bhn) in his military surplus rifles. He also uses the soft SPG lube. You can read his latest artical concerning this in April 2013 issue on news stands now.

Linotype is veryeasy to cast with. Usually around 600-650 degrees. Makes purdy boollits

I obsessed with hardness for a while. Due to some insights gained here regarding boolit fit and lower-pressure powder use, i have basically forgotten about it. In my recent attempts to get past 2200 fps or so in my 30-30 and 30-06 i have some water dropped curing. Its been a few weeks so they are prob up to 20-25 bhn. I should check tonight.

Same alloy (pretty much COWW) was shot above 2k with no problems related to boolit hardness. Im definitely not a rifle loading expert but it seems that too much focus is given to hardness.

Besides, you will get better boolit expansion with a little softer alloy. The gas check and boolit obturation are keeping the lead fouling away, for me anyway

i'm sure what you are doing is working.
I use the exact same formula for most of my rifle loads.
18 grs of 2400 and a water dropped boolit.

I haven't met a piece of paper, rock, ground squirrel, grouse, or deer that hasn't been handled by this combination yet.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

I heat treat my boolits when I want them to go fast and usually end up 24-28 bhn. There's them as holds that fit is king and a good enough fittin' boolit will do just fine, no matter how soft. I agree that fit is most important, but I find that once you get much beyond the 1800 fps mark, accuracy suffers and leading starts unless your boolits are harder than the typical WW air cooled. I do not water drop because it is easier to size soft boolits than hard ones. I size and seat gas checks, then heat treat using Dennis Marshall's technique. Since all the boolits hit the ice water at the same time, they all tend to be about the same hardness.

_________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

Boolit Master Join DateJan 2012LocationSaskatchewan CanadaPosts252

I also use the same velocity but cast my boolits a bit softer than yours. I have cast and shot many 50/50 WW and pure lead boolits to 1700+ (air cooled gas checked). I have no idea what the BHN of that alloy is but it does work well in my rifles and leaves virtually spotless bores with speed green. I have also cast with Lyman #2 which is much harder, and honestly I do not see much if any improvement in accuracy at those velocities, in my rifles. The boolits cast better and look better with lino or #2 and do cast slightly bigger.

IMHO, go ahead and use the straight air cooled WW alloy. It will give good results at those velocities.

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Lowdown on cast boolit hardness.

OK here goes, I know you need a certain hardness for certain velocities (lower pistol velocities=softer lead) rifle above 1500fps = harder lead. What is the softest I can go for velocities from 1500- 1900 fps? What works good for standard rifle hunting velocities?

That would probably depend on the caliber and what you are hunting. A 45/70 could use 20/1 lead tin (8 bhn) while a 30/30 may need Lyman #2 (15 bhn)

Strait wheel weights can eather be used soft or water quenched hardened.

It depends.

A 45-70 will allow softer than a 22. A gas check allows softer than plain base. Powder used matter, slow burn rate allows softer alloy.

Yeah, I just depends. Experiment and see how soft your rifle and load will allow.

What is the softest I can go for velocities from 1500- 1900 fps? What works good for standard rifle hunting velocities?You must provide caliber, rate of twist, number of grooves and bore/groove dimensions in order to get a reliable answer to that question. Also, you should be able to fill the chamber's throat (with the boolit) to get optimum results.

MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

Also, powder burn rate. IME, for moderate loads like under 1800 fps or so in rifles, you
can use air cooled wwts with the 2400 or other fast rifle/slow pistol powders with GC boolits.

For pistols, .357 and .44 mags do just fine with PB boolits, and as soft as 8 BHN has worked
fine for me with excellent accy and zero leading during testing. Normally, I use air cooled
wwts for everything, but sometimes I have range scrap alloy that is much softer.

Hardness is overrated as a variable. At best it is a secondary factor, and often a teriary or
lower item. Good design, good lube and GOOD FIT are usually much more important.

Bill

If it was easy, anybody could do it.

Bullet type may factor in too. A long unsupported nose on a "soft" bullet may slump more and a harder alloy could help.

I do not hunt so I err on the "harder is better" side for rifle bullets. I want an accurate load that will work for many shots punching paper.

But for a hunting bullet you will want to go as soft as possible. A bullet/load that leads after 20 shots is, in my mind, a better choice if it expands as desired and has acceptable accuracy. After all, how many shots will you take in the field? With most shots less than 100 yards even a 4 MOA load is going to be adequate.

Sure, a load that leads a bit and gives 4 MOA is not going to excite anyone here, but the deer/bear will be just as dead and the softer bullet will perform better on game.

For example. I am converting to a .40 for self defense and will use cast bullets. I will use "hard" plain base bullets for practice but use a much softer alloy and PB GC's for carry ammo. I want a load that will allow me to shoot a few hundred rounds without leading for practice sessions but I hope to never need the ammo I load for "social work". But if I do, I want something that expands well and reliably - and I know (hope?) two magazines worth will be all I need. By using the same mold to produce both, I will be able to have the same POI as well as confirm how well the bullet/load functions.

You must provide caliber, rate of twist, number of grooves and bore/groove dimensions in order to get a reliable answer to that question. Also, you should be able to fill the chamber's throat (with the boolit) to get optimum results.

MJ

I wasnt sure if there was a standard for all calibers in that range, I have read so many different views on Brinell hardness. I do know its not advisable to shoot pure lead bullets in any rifle but have also heard some people go as low as a 9 through standard velocities (1500-1900 fps) in rifles. Casting some 45-70 bullets yesterday we tried water quenching but they got very brittle. You could actually notice the cracks and voids in the bullets. Lead used was standard wheel weights.

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.Close to what I did with a 50-50 HP from my 45-70 revolver, not as nasty but still lost a lot of shoulder. I OVEN HARDENED them too. I had 20 BHN. They were around 1600 fps.

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.

I cast some 45-70 then water quenched them (many didnt turn out too good but think I figured out the problem). Instead of dropping them directly into the water once set up we actually waited approx 1 minute then placed them into the bucket. These turned out very good and hardened up to the point that you cannot dent them with your finger nail. I wanted to cast the 45-70 harder than the 243's as you really dont need much expansion with that size bullet. trying to get the 243's a tad softer so they will perform well at 1700fps on coyotes. In my experiences from what I have seen coyotes are a super tough animal. Maybe even tougher that deer. I will need a semi soft 243 boolit to keep the energy retained in the coyote, but on the flip side do not want to tear the **** out of the hides.

Boolit Mold Join DateMay 2013LocationSouth LouisianaPosts1

I'm a rookie caster and with all the above factors and variables my head is starting to spin. Maybe I'm over thinking things. I just got a new Lyman die 429650 I believe it is, and have cast maybe 40 boolits with it. I too, dropped them into a 5 gallon bucket of water right out of the mold. I'm using 100% WW and I can't scratch them with my finger nail. My rounds will be used primarily for hunting South Louisiana Whitetail at distances of about 100-125 yards tops. I don't have a way to check the hardness. I'm thinking this should be decent for what I want to do with it.

Boolit Master Join DateFeb 2009Posts840

Don't sweat it. Everyone has to start somewhere. Start with boolit fit in your guns chamber/barrel, then work your way towards hardness. Try those ww's hard and try them soft (air cooled). You can soften them back down in the oven. It's easy to do. See where your accuracy is. Maybe explode some milk jugs to see how the boolit reacts at various speeds/hardness levels. Not too complicated. You have to experiment a bit.

Edit: One thing to be aware of is a hard boolit is less likely to be sized down by your brass and reloading dies (I've had issues with this) as a softer one will. No big deal. You just have to be aware of it and make adjustments.

I'm a rookie caster and with all the above factors and variables my head is starting to spin. Maybe I'm over thinking things. I just got a new Lyman die 429650 I believe it is, and have cast maybe 40 boolits with it. I too, dropped them into a 5 gallon bucket of water right out of the mold. I'm using 100% WW and I can't scratch them with my finger nail. My rounds will be used primarily for hunting South Louisiana Whitetail at distances of about 100-125 yards tops. I don't have a way to check the hardness. I'm thinking this should be decent for what I want to do with it.

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Punch Hardness

I have a heck of a time threading Drill rod so the threads are straight with the world. It don't help matters that my left arm is semi worthless for 6 months. Can a guy harden a Grade 8 bolt once its machined for a punch or is it not able to temper?

Grade 8 Bolts are "Medium Carbon Alloy", should be hardened through in the mid to high 30's on Rockwell "C" scale. Not really "Hard" actually but a good TOUGH range appropriate for a bolt. Since they are a Carbon Alloy should be heat treatable with minimal issues after machining at least for some one that understands Heat Treating, I have a friend that takes care of that for me, he does it for a living, has taught me enough to be dangerous but not competition

Not sure exactly what you need in a punch but if you want PM me and I can get pretty much anything you need made, heat treated and ready to use.
Kevin

Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? (Sgt. Oddball, KELLY'S HEROES)

I'm specing out my punch hardness at 57-60 HRC. This should keep it just below the die hardness.

I have made a number of core seat punches useing ?in grade 8 bolts and didn't harden them at all. I have only used themto seat a couple dozen 375 cores and they worked fine but I don't know how they will hold up. I can case harden them here at home but have not done it yet. That wouldn't make them any stronger but they would be wear reistant. If the case is harder than the die, the die might be damaged. I had to make my own punch holders too becaues of the coarse thread of the bolt. Now that I am setting up a milling machine I will make them from W 1 drill rod and drill and tap the end to fit the RCE punch holder. If you use a variety of jackets, you can never have enough core seat punches.

Bob

Theoretically I would have thought you can go as hard as you like for a core seating punch, given the jacket is between the punch and the wall?

My 57 to 60 HRC spec is for my boat tail punch going into my point form die.

I just have a time threading the 1/2" drill rod to make the derim punches. SOFMatchstaff made me a shaft for my pneumatic cylinder and it's set to use a 1/2" threaded punch. I haven't mastered threading on my minilathe and use a die to attempt threading drill rod. Drill rod tempers up perfectly for the job. I wasn't sure if grade 8 bolts could be hardened so there is no bending with use.

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Ideal hardness formula

Boolit Bub Join DateMar 2013LocationI challenge your middle of nowhere, and raise you 5.Posts46

This was located here: http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/15e296c61415e831fecfe8fddcc1dc92-414.html

Ideal hardness in BHN = Pressure / 1,920
Maximum BHN = Pressure / 1,422

Anyone else use this?

Boolit Bub Join DateMar 2013LocationI challenge your middle of nowhere, and raise you 5.Posts46

No one here is aware of this formula?
I have now read it on a number of sites, but it confuses the daylights out of me.
According to lyman, my 240gr 6.0 Unique loaded cartridge produces 10,300 cpu.
This would give me a BHN of 5.3 or roughly pure lead?

I'm giving myself a headache.

I'm aware of it, but it is really just a theoretical formula and not of much use in the real world. If it were true, my .454 Casull boolits would turn to putty at 55 KPSI.

I seriously doubt that any experienced caster depends on the formula.

You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

This has been around for a long time. I have used it as a guide to match the velocity I want to the BHN of the alloy. If you are shooting higher velocity rifle loads and tried to use 5 BHN you would probably get miserable accuracy and leading. So you use the formula to determine how hard your alloy needs to be so it will give you the performance you are wanting.
Remember the fit is king. You can use a harder alloy than the formula says as long as it fits the gun properly. I only use 2 different hardness of alloy now and it works well. About 14 BHN and 22 BHN.
This formula is also used in the new Lee reloading book.

Ignore any such formulae and your headache will instantly disappear.

Cast and shot lead bullets for mebbe 15 years before I tried "The Formula". Too much trouble for the results I achieved (none?). For me and my guns bullet to gun fit is way more important...

The formula is over simplified.

BHN is only 50% of the "hardness" of a cast bullet. Malleability/elasticity, etc. (whatever you want to call it) is the other half. You can easily have 2 cast bullets of the same BHN but one can be brittle and the other malleable. One can be pushed with higher psi and it isn't the brittle one. A lot depends on the % content of the lead, animony, tin and copper in binary, ternary and 4 component (quadra ?) alloys. Also the formula does not take into account the accelleration rate before the max psi is reached. Slow burning powders accellerate slower for a given psi and most often a higher velocity.

Having pressure tested a lot of cast bullet loads in various cartridges I no longer even bother with calculating that formula as its answer is most often meaningless.

Larry Gibson

Boolit Master Join DateSep 2009LocationArizonaPosts727

Great read Larry, and I only had to read it once.

Heard of it.

Bill

If it was easy, anybody could do it.

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40 S & W cast bullet hardness?

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationBear, DelawarePosts10

I am new to casting and have been casting mostly 22 cal. Linotype bullets. I have some pure lead as well. I want to do some 40 cal S & W next. What type of hardness shoud I be shooting for? I was planning to do a 50 % linotype and 50 % lead mix. Does anyone have and advice or suggestions?
Thanks!

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What's Ideal Hardness for deer size game?

If the velocity goal is 1800- 2000fps, is there a hardness that allows satisfactory expansion(Gas Checks used)?

More information: Bullet design (molds on order) are flat nose, Lyman 173gr and RCBS 200gr

Application: Marlin lever guns, 30-30 and .35 rem.

Alloy on hand: old clip on WW

Last edited by jsteed; Yesterday at 06:47 AM. Reason: more info

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I believe it would depend on caliber and boolit profile.

what are you working with?

Ken

Screwbolts Lead, smelted lead from Bullet traps at Gun manufacturers, from jacketed Pistol and rifle bullets. Fluxed three times with bees wax and pine saw dust. 20 pound and 40 pound boxes.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?173-Screwbolts-Lead-Area

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Boolit Master Join DateFeb 2008LocationTexasPosts554

With any decent meplat anything from 12 to 15 will give decent expansion. An older article in the Lyman cast bullet book demonstrated the effect of hardness (lyman#2) vs velocity. After about 1800 fps higher impact resulted in progressively less penetration and greater nose shedding in lieu of expansion.
I use large meplat and heat treated bullets at 22-27 bhn. I place my shots carefully and expect no expansion.

Salvaging old Marlins is not a pasttime...it's a passion

Water quenched 50/50 WW/pure (about 15 bhn) does real well at 1800 fps. Will expand nicely and penetrate a 200 pound hog stem to stern.

I came into this world kicking, screaming, and covered in someone elses blood. I plan to go out the same way.

I use a heat treated 50/50 alloy with a touch of tin in my leverguns. Limited results so far but all good! Latest success story was first CB kill with a 35 Rem, punched thru the gristle plate of a 225-250lb boar and smashed both shoulders but did not exit. Never took another step, tho. Second kill w/ that combo was a few hours later on a 70-80lb sow with an ear shot. A doe shot with a 45-70 of the same alloy didn't have an impressive wound channel or exit wound but she made it less than 50 yds after a frontal shot to the chest. Haven't recovered a boolit yet but suspect expansion is modest and a GC ensures that all the lead makes it out the muzzle.

Life Member NRA, TSRA
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Boolit Bub Join DateJan 2010Posts47

Malleability, or plasticity, is NOT directly proportional to Brinell Hardness. It is, however, dependent on the crystalline structure of the alloy. Binary lead/tin alloys are very malleable as tin is very soluble in lead. It's why the blackpowder cartridge shooters love it for it's obturation in the bore at 10/1 or 20/1.

When you go to a tertiary lead/tin/antimony alloys, the proportion of tin to antimony is very important. Antimony is not very soluble in lead, and at over 2 percent the crystalline structure begins to be very brittle. Equal percentages of tin/antimony form an intermettalic compound which IS malleable.

Consider Lyman #2 alloy at 95/5/5 lead/tin/antimony versus hardball 92/2/6 lead/tin/antimony. Both have BHN of about 15. Lyman #2 is a malleable alloy that expands in rifle bullets very well depending on bullet type at appropriate cast bullet velocities. Make up a mix of 97/1.5/1.5 lead/tin/antimony with a BHN of about 9 and you have an alloy that expands at 900 to 1200 fps handgun velocities and is great for hollowpoints in handguns.

Try the hardball alloy in rifle bullets or cut it with lead for handguns and you will find that it fractures.

A very good explanation is provided by "From Ingot to Target:A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners" available on the LASC website. Read the hoolwpoint bullet section.

The old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has similar information.

Paborn

that's all good information.
i too rely on ww's and soft lead.
a flat nose.
and velocity.
the last two are where i try to really balance things.
the flatter then nose the less velocity needed/used.

you have to balance the alloy out for mold fill and fit to your rifle.
the best alloy in the world don't do you much good if everything is crooked/sloppy in the barell.
you can modify the mold to work with you also.
once you have your fit try reducing the alloy with soft lead a little at a time and see how it does for you.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

Thanks to all for the feedback. To be honest, I'm reading information that I don't understand yet, but I'll get there.

The problem we have in our country today is there are more who vote for a living than work for a living !

Keep reading and you'll do fine. The correct lube will help alot too. With air cooled clip on wheel weight and LBT Blue Soft I was going past 2000 FPS in a .32 Win. Special.

Now that I think about it, everything in signature is with air cooled COWW. From 850 FPS to 2300 FPS.

Recent cast boolit hunts:
Doe, 452424 in a 45 Colt revolver.
11 pointer, Ac Mold 45-300G in a 45 Colt lever action. "The wonder shot"
Doe, H&G 503 clone in a 44 revolver.
3 pointer Ac Mold 32-170A in a model 94
Doe with a Ac molds 45-300G smokeless inline muzzleloader pushing hard with AA5744.

I have been wondering the same thing concerning deer hunting (100-125 lb deer). What mixture of coww and pure lead for a 120g rn 30 cal bullet going about 1500fps? And should it be water cooled or air cooled? Should a bullet like that be hollow-pointed, or no need?

Thanks!
Glenn

Boolit Man Join DateApr 2010LocationSE IowaPosts85

I have shot a bunch of deer over the past and my best advice is to use an alloy that shoots well in your rifle, with a flat nose preferably, shoot them behind the shoulder thru the lungs. Then wait for the life to come out before you follow the blood trail. More than likely they will not go far. Bang flops do not always happen and dead is dead. Shooting cast is more like a bow hunter than a 7mm wizz bang and the bigger the bore the faster you let the air out Russ

Boolit Master Join DateJan 2010Posts404

I also go as soft as I can get away with and as flat-nosed as I can. It's a winning combination, but unfortunately varies from gun to gun so you will have to play with yours and find out where exactly that perfect point is.

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Hunter Safety Instructor

I can tell you this. I shoot an RCBS 35-200-FN in my 358 Winchester at 35 rem velocities. If you make your boolits out of 50/50 and air cool them, it will make hamburger out of a deer. Way too soft. I started a thread here in hunting about "the cast lead boolit is the most effective projectile in the world" I show graphic pictures of what happens when you hit Bambi with a soft, 2000+ fps boolit. It ain't pretty.

Cast your boolits out of 50/50.
Water quench them (ie. drop them from the mold into cold water)
Lube with FWFL.
Keep your speed under 2000fps
Enjoy clean kills.

Tim Malcolm

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"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Thomas Edward Lawrence

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