Mot robust SxS 12ga? (i.e. can handle highest pressure loads)

believe it or not, a 12-yr old shooter with a fascination for SxS's asked me this:

What double barrel side-by-side can handle the biggest "boomer" loads?

After discussing it with him a little, we determined he meant an action that can handle high(er) pressure loads. I told him about info from hubel458's 12gaFH thread that the Savage bolt-action can handle to 35000psi and that the TC/NEF single shots to 25000 psi, and that a H&R/Rossi with a custom barrel (of 1.5" diameter) can handle abt the same. But he wants a strong SxS (not over under).

Do any exist? I suppose some info on the strength of commercially available guns would help us here.

preferably not an English "Bore" gun that costs $20000, please!

Thanks,
C-

C

My gut tells me it is not the action that will fail but the barrels. Baikal marketed a 45/70 double rifle that looked like their 12 gauge SxS and I think it was rated at 32,000 psi. 12 ga barrels on these guns are not thick to keep weight down.

That must be some 12 YO. I cannot imagine enjoying shooting anything bigger than a 3" mag out of any SxS's I have ever fired. LOL

Boolit Master Join DateJul 2006Posts446

There are shotgun actions that can handle double rifle pressures,
but they need heavy barrels put on them whether shotgun like
the 12ga FH or big bore rifles. In the 12ga FH thread are pics of Rob
puttin heavy 12ga FH barrels on a heavy 10ga frame. Have your
youngster look at that.Ed

Custom 12ga Heavy barrels on a 10ga frame??? Now there's an idea!
Will any frame do? or are some brands better than others?
C-

Boolit Bub Join DateAug 2012LocationItalyPosts41 Boolit Master Join DateJul 2006Posts446

Rob is using a Zabala 10ga alloy frame and monoblocking in
12ga barrels into the barrel stubs of the cut off 10ga barrels.
Cut off even with end of pivot. That is how most factories
in mass production make them now. Many other brands of
doubles made in Spain and Italy will do as long as modern
steel alloy.Ed

I guesstimate that 12/89 means 12ga, 3.5-inch? How can i order one in the USA? My parents are going to Italy next year, but importing this shotgun is probably not what they had in mind!
I am of Italian ancestry, but my spoken Italian is poor.
Can i get a translation?

it looks AWESOME!!!

UNIVERSAL EXPRESS SHOTGUNS

Mod. "M.R. 728 UNIVERSAL EXPRESS SHOTGUNS"
OLTRE IL PARADAX
Doppietta express CAL. 12/89. -728.M.R.
UN FUCILE CHE VI PERMETTE DI CACCIARE DALL'ALLODOLA ALL' ELEFANTE
PROGETTO DALL'ALLODOLA ALL'ELEFANTE.(COME IL TITOLO DEL LIBRO DI PONCE DE LEON ADELIO) In un ipotetico viaggio di caccia attorno al mondo in OTTANTA ANIMALI , partendo dal mio Piemonte a caccia di lepri, anatre, cinghiali ecc.., poi con un trasferimento nel' Europa dell'est dal mio amico Fulvio a caccia di oche, anatre caprioli e orsi, e poi in Africa a leopardi, leoni, fococeri, antilopi, bufali e ancora volare prima in argentina per cacciare i grossi cinghiali e gli acquatici e un altro volo negli U.S.A. per il tacchino selvatico e il cervo mulo, per poi far rientro in Italia per il passaggio di allodole e beccacce, non potendo portare con me dieci armi diverse, ma portandone una sola quale avrei scelto? In passato ditte famose come Holland & Holland, Manufrance, Westey Richards, Jeffery,ecc.. hanno cercato di risolvere il problema e in parte ci sono riuscite. In Francia la MANUFRANCE fece canne lisce rigate denominate "SUPRA" per stabilizzare le palle e allargare le rosate, queste canne oggi vengono costruite a Gardone dove molti costruttori le montano denominandole Paradox, con un evidente errore, perch? il "PARADOX" nato in HOLLAND & HOLLAND, inventato dal Colonnello Fosbery, pur avendo la stessa funzione riguarda un tratto di rigatura che comprende solo la parte della strozzatura. Per avere sufficiente energia per gli animali pi? grossi si usavano i calibri 8, potenti ma pesanti e con un forte rinculo.I calibri 8 vennero abbandonati a favore degli express con il passaggio alla polvere nitro, pi? leggeri e di eguale potenza. Con il PARADOX della Holland & Holland, che come diceva la stessa casa costrutrice, si poteva cacciare dal beccaccino alla tigre. L'ottimo progetto Paradox di Holland & Holland, aveva due limiti, la cartuccia a palla sviluppava prestazioni pi?ttosto basse in cal. 12, simili alle attuali slug. Per questo facevano calibri superiori come il cal. 10 e il cal.8. In oltre la parte rigata della canna era fissa e questo non permetteva tiri lunghi a pallini, ma si comportava come una canna cilindrica. Oggi anche le canna lisce si sono evolute e con il 12/89 si ha un fucile leggero come un cal. 12 con le prestazioni di potenza di un cal.8, e con cariche di pallini che vanno dai 24 grammi ai 70, varie palle anche esse con pesi e forma vari dalle sferiche, alle Brenneke, alle slug, alle Souvestre (ricordo che Pierre Caravati in Selous Tanzania ha gi? abbattuto bufali con una souvestre 12 Magnum). Con gli strozzatori intercambiabili, possiamo avere canne cilindriche, strozzate in vari gradi,e con quelli rigati avere il PARADOX. Con un bossolo in ottone 12/89 negli USA si sta facendo il 700 From Hell, io tempo fa feci lo stesso creando il cal. 728 M.R. per il revolver pi? grande del mondo "CUCCIOLO" ora con questa serie di fucili, sovrapposti e doppiette con varie lunghezze di canna in grado di sparare qualunque cartuccia cal. 12, 12 Magnum, 12 Supermagnum e .728 M.R. eliminando i limiti del paradox di Holland & Holland NASCE IL FUCILE CHE PUO' ABBATTERE TUTTO DALL'ALLODOLA ALL'ELEFANTE.

C-

The weight is listed as 3.2 kg! That's a tad over seven pounds... No way I'd be firing 3-1/2" shells in that one.

Boolit Bub Join DateAug 2012LocationItalyPosts41

C- if you get google translator, you will get it done in a few seconds, as it would take me half hour to do a good job. It can be made with rifled barrels or smooth ones. It can use brass hulls and become a "700 from hell". If you write then, i am sure they will tell you how you can get one in texas.

Cap'n Morgan- yes it is 3.5 inch. Such shells are loaded with very progressive powders, and often the recoil is less then a 3 ". Perceived recoil also depends on the body mass of the shooter.

Good morning
Savage Fox B. Or the 311. They were made heavy. Yes they would blow apart. But tell that young shooter to do his testing sitting behind cross sticks or standing with just a thin shirt on and he will not blow up a double Savage.
Origonal Fox barrels are just as thick but far more costly. I see average, no finish 311's for sale for $150 at shows and sales. Mine will handle caliber.685 RB at 1550 all day long. That is more than the 150 year ago elephant hunters used. If he needs more than that go to a bolt gun.
Mike in Peru

Springfield, Stevens and some store brands are the same beast. Just more plain.

Last edited by missionary5155; Today at 02:30 AM. Reason: added

"Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
Impacted while hot small lava bomb Projectile found out in the desert.

If he wants to go the route of serious barrels, I have a nice golf caddy I don't use that would look nice attached to a double gun!

Here we go:

A RIFLE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO HUNT DALL'ALLODOLA 'ELEPHANT
PROJECT DALL'ALLODOLA elephant. (AS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK OF PONCE DE LEON ADELIO) In a hypothetical hunting trip around the world in EIGHTY ANIMALS, starting from my Piedmont hunting for hares, ducks, wild boar, etc. .., then with a transfer in the 'Eastern Europe by my friend Fulvio hunting of geese, ducks, deer and bears, and then in Africa leopards, lions, fococeri, antelope, buffalo and still fly the first in Argentina to hunt large wild boars and water and another flight in the U.S. for the wild turkey and mule deer, and then to return to Italy for the passage of larks and woodcock, not able to take me ten different weapons, but carrying one which I would have chosen? In the past, famous companies such as Holland & Holland, Manufrance, Westey Richards, Jeffery, etc. .. have tried to solve the problem in hand, we have succeeded. In France, the MANUFRANCE made smooth barrels rifled called "SUPRA" to stabilize and expand the pink balls, these rods are now made in Gardone where many manufacturers Paradox calling them the mountain, with an obvious error, because the "PARADOX" born in HOLLAND & HOLLAND, invented by Colonel Fosbery, while having the same function relates to a stretch of rifling which includes only the part of the bottleneck. In order to have enough energy for the larger animals were used 8 gauges, powerful but heavy and with a strong rinculo.I 8 gauges were abandoned in favor of express with the transition to the nitro powder, lighter and the same power. With the PARADOX of Holland & Holland, as expressed in the same house costrutrice, you could snipe hunt by the tiger. The excellent project Paradox of Holland & Holland, had two limits, the cartridge ball developed performance rather low in cal. 12, similar to the current slug. For this caliber were higher as the cal. 10 and the cal.8. In addition the rifled barrel was fixed and this did not allow long shots with buckshot, but acted as a cylindrical barrel. Today, even the smooth barrel and have evolved with the 12/89 you have a gun as light as a cal. 12 with the power performance of a cal.8, and loaded with bullets ranging from 24 grams to 70, various balls with weights and they also form different from spherical to Brenneke, the slug, the Souvestre (remember Pierre Caravati Selous in Tanzania has already shot down a buffalo with Souvestre 12 Magnum). With interchangeable, we can have cylindrical barrels, choked in varying degrees, and with the stripes have the PARADOX. With a brass cartridge case 12/89 in the U.S. is doing 700 From Hell, I recently did the same by creating the cal. 728 M.R. for the revolver world's largest "PUPPY" now with this series of rifles, shotguns and overlapping with various barrel lengths capable of firing any cartridge cal. 12, 12 Magnum, 12 Supermagnum and .728 M.R. eliminating the limits of the paradox of Holland & Holland BORN THE GUN THAT CAN 'KILL ALL DALL'ALLODOLA elephant.

A 12 gauge, smooth or rifled, will smoke anything on earth. No need for the exotic.

"Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
James. C. Henderson

Boolit Master Join DateJul 2006Posts446

You don't suppose we FH nuts have started something. Ed

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8mm mauser loads. from 7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) Brass? (re-formed)

8mm mauser loads. from 7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) Brass?
Trimmed, thinned, and annealed and re-squeezed,
How is this done?
I have bardan primed brass to use for dia. and could even pull the J-words
and have some 7,62x51 brass in route as a package deal so
I have a mauser and brass prices are ugly, so I have read something about this, can this be done? anyone ever done this or have I misunderstood

I am not ready to start doing this but if i could start to read up on it and learn nuff to be safe, and then il know right questions to ask so I dont sound so dumb about re-squeezeing,, hahaha

Please advise
Patrick

cross posted to our town

Trust in God and Keep your Powder Dry ~ Oliver Cromwell

Please Give me 24 to 48 Hours to respond to PM, Thank You

**_Watch this Space_**

Boolit Bub Join DateApr 2012LocationVictoria, AuPosts23

I have done 8x57 and 7x57 from 30-06.
Nope,I dont think so...

Last edited by eljefeoz; Yesterday at 04:37 AM.

Yep, too short. Use 30-06 cases to make 8X57, it's easy. Be careful if you also own a 30-06, not to get them mixed up.

-Nobade

Boolit Master Join DateAug 2010Posts157

Use 30-06 brass. Pick a brand that you have enough of and convert all of them. So then, when you are at the range you will know not to use that brand of your reloaded ammo in your 30-06. Also, label the storage containers outside and inside so that some one coming after you does not think that it is ammo for a 30-06. A good example is to use HXP cases because they do not have 30-06 stamped on them,which should cause you or the next person to check dimensions if the identity of the ammo is lost in the future.

I don't get the statement that "brass prices are ugly." Brass availability may be touch-and-go, but prices for new stock aren't any worse than they ever were. Adjust for inflation and the stuff isn't any pricier than it was 40 years ago.

As far as 8mm Mauser brass goes, it's out there. A thorough Google search turned up a bunch of it.

I use .270Win brass to make 8X57 Mauser cases. I don't have a .270 so the headstamp alerts me that this is not .308 or .30-06 which I do have. For some reason .270 brass is much more plentiful as range pickups than .30-06 where I live.

I make my 8mm from military 30-06, I make my 7.65X53 from military 06, I make my 7x57 and 7x57A.I from military 30-06, and I make my 35 Whelen from commercial .270 and it is as foolproof as I can make it as my ammo may outlast my time on this rock, but if you cannot look at a loaded .308, 8mm, 7.65 argy round or 35 whelen round and tell it is not what is stamped on the case head...SHOULD YOU BE AT THE RANGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

.308 is too short to make 8x57

"Happiness is a target rich environment"

Soon as I read it I was think"too short".

When reforming brass I use a Dremel tool to very carefully remove the old cartridge designation on the head. A light touch is key. I have a lot of 7.65x53 and 7x57 made from .270 in RCBS form/trim dies. Easy schmeezy. I figure no "label" is better than an incorrect one.

Sparkz, I sent you a PM.

Dan

7.62X51

7.92X57

Says it all

The sum total of intelligence in the world is a constant, the population is increasing.

Boolit Master Join DateMay 2011Posts237

Yep they'd be way short. Use '06, or .270.

I make my 8mm from military 30-06, I make my 7.65X53 from military 06, I make my 7x57 and 7x57A.I from military 30-06, and I make my 35 Whelen from commercial .270 and it is as foolproof as I can make it as my ammo may outlast my time on this rock, but if you cannot look at a loaded .308, 8mm, 7.65 argy round or 35 whelen round and tell it is not what is stamped on the case head...SHOULD YOU BE AT THE RANGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

.308 is too short to make 8x57

While you know the difference. And I know the difference. Neither you, nor I can guarantee that someone, sometime down the road will have that ammo and not know (actually I think it is probable that someone will, I just won't guarantee that it will happen). Personally, I use .270 to form the 7x57 cases I use in my Model 1910 Rolling Block, and keep the 7x57 cases for loads which are a bit stiff for the RB. Years ago I formed cases from the cheap USGI cases (wish any brass was $0.01 to $0.02 each again). Now, with the availability of the various cases which once were nearly impossible to find, I keep my .30-06 cases for the 06 rifles and buy the foreign military cases.

Why anyone would ask if they can form 8x57mm cases out of 7.62x51mm cases is a different issue. Perhaps the OP didn't know that metric cartridges are designated: nominal caliber x case length? Or maybe thought expanding 7.62mm to 8mm would cause the case to lengthen 6mm?

Ed

CW3 USA (Ret)
NRA Patron
TX State Rifle Assn Life
NY State Rifle and Pistol Assn Member because I don't have to fight that fight in TX

Delicately grind off the old cartridge headstamp with a Dremel tool. It's fast, easy, and decreases the chances of a boo-boo. I'm not talking about grinding away enough to affect safety, just barely remove the lettering/numbers. So far it's worked for me.

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Swedish 1896 Mauser loads?

142 grain cast bullets

calibur 6.5mm or .264

bullet Lyman cast bullets, Lyman #264469CV diameter - .264, weight - 140 gr
bullet weight 142 grains (weighted with lube and gas check)
bullet style cast round nose
bullet sized to .265" with gas check
bullet lube Lee alox

Powder IMR 4895
Powder weight 18.6 grains

primer Winchester large rifle
case Winchester

trim length 2.160 inches

OAL 3.025 inches (measured)

sub 1.00" at 100 yards for 5 rounds

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Magnum rifle primers and 8mm cast boolit loads.

Boolit Bub Join DateJan 2013Posts20

I can't get ahold of any primers. Except for large magnum rifle primers, and I was curious if anyone had any experience using magnum PR with, regular 8mm loads. For example, using them with 18 grains of Aliant 2400 powder under a 175 grain cast boolit, or with 47 grains of H 380 with a 175 grain spitzer soft point. I would venture to guess that it should work...

I have used em and the only change I made was to reduce my charge by 2 grains.

I came into this world kicking, screaming, and covered in someone elses blood. I plan to go out the same way.

Boolit Bub Join DateJan 2013Posts20

Was this with the cast boolit load? Or regular load?

Boolit Master Join DateJun 2009LocationKentuckyPosts203

I haven't used them in my loads, but would not hesitate to do so. The load you mentioned in your post is one of my favorite for the 8mm with the #321297 cast bollit. As the other reply stated, you might want to reduce the load a couple of grains to see how the performance is. You can always add another grain if you think that it will help.

Steve

Last edited by curiousgeorge; Today at 05:47 PM. Reason: specifying cast boolit for my load

Boolit Bub Join DateJan 2013Posts20

I am pretty sure the pressure from the cast boolit load, even with magnum primers, is well below the pressure that the military 8mm rifle can handle... I would assume that it would work, but of course I am interested in seeing if people have tried it.

I am in the same boat as you. I have a large surplus of Remington 9 1/2 primers that I needed to find a use. I have been shooting the Lee 175 gr boolit with 19 grs of 2400 and the Rem 9 1/2. Also the same charge and primer under the Lyman 323471. Works well. As mentioned above, the pressure generated by these loads is still well below any max loading. No worries, use those magnum primers.

Boolit Bub Join DateJan 2013Posts20

Cool, but aren't Remington 9 1/2 just regular large rifle primers not magnum?

You are correct. I forgot the M part. Thanks for helping me get it straight.

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Lee 1oz slug loads need different powder question

Boolit Buddy Join DateFeb 2010Posts69

I only have enough blue dot powder to make about 60 slugs, The powders that i have are red dot,bullseye and unique. The slugs will be used for 3-gun so i dont needs blazing speed and targets are out to 50yrds. I will be using AA hulls and have some nitro cards for spacers and different federal wads for adjustable slug height, I dont want to try going into this blindly, Can i use eather of the powders listed? and what powder charge if accepable?
Thanks Coleman

I am interested, too, as the data provided with the mold has not changed, to my knowledge, since the Activ brand components were available.

"I don't have hobbies - I'm developing a robust post-apocalyptic skill set"
I may be discharged and retired but I'm sure I did not renounce the oath that I solemnly swore!

Coleman, since you have Unique, you're in business. You could also use the RedDot, just look up a Trap load for that powder. I'm sure you will enjoy the loads with the Unique and RedDot more than the BlueDot loads, if you have been using the BlueDot data provided with the mold. That tends to be a bit much for fun shooting.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?shotype=&weight=1.125&weightdis=1+1%2f8&shellid=493>ypeid=3&gauge=12

The link I posted is for 1&1/8 ounce data because Alliant doesn't show data for loads as light as 1 ounce using Unique. Due to the construction of the AA hulls, there is no data for the Federal wads, so basically it is just a guideline. Standard caveats apply, but I use 25 grains of Unique in a AA hull with a federal 12S3 wad with the Lee one ounce slug. I have the nitro wads, but adding one inside the 12S3 doesn't allow a good crimp in the AA hull with that powder charge. I picked the 12S3 due to its thin and tough petals.

A reduced speed (and recoil) slug load that performs at 50 yards should give quite the advantage in shooting time in a 3-gun match. If you're shooting an autoloader, you may be limited as to how low you can go and still function the action.

You have the right to force me to pay for the feeding, housing, clothing, education, and medical treatment of yourself and your children when I have THE RIGHT TO FORCE YOU TO PICK MY COTTON!

Section 1 13th Amendment to the Constitution:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

As pipehand said above, I have loaded Lee 1oz. slugs with published Red Dot loads using 1oz. and 1 1/8oz. trap load data. This goes with the other componet data as well, star crimped or roll crimp.

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Reduced loads for hunting

Boolit Mold Join DateNov 2012Posts6

Has anyone hunted with reduced 30/30 loads? Say maybe a 10 grain unique load for deer? A muzzleloader does good with a round ball at about 850 or 900 fps so I don't see why 170 grain bullet at 1200 or 1300 would not do the trick. Any info would be very helpful. Thanks

IMHO, It should do fine, my 357 mag rook rifle has taken 9 deer in 6 years, I used to load a 178 gr semi-wadcutter to 1070 fps, that worked great, after I got the NOE 180 WFN it has been loaded to 1250 FPS and it flat out Kills just great longest shot has been 128 yards.

Screwbolts Lead, smelted lead from Bullet traps at Gun manufacturers, from jacketed Pistol and rifle bullets. Fluxed three times with bees wax and pine saw dust. 20 pound and 40 pound boxes.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?173-Screwbolts-Lead-Area

???O? ????
All The ?Rat Bastards? In DC Know Obama Is Not Eligible!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".

??? RBs out of my .45 ML run 1900+ fps and 1670 fps out of my .50 cal.........??? Never occured to me to reduce them.........

However, depending on where you hunt deer and the style of hunting a reduced load with a 170+ gr cast bullet with a large meplate should effectively take deer out to 100 yards if you put the bullet in the right place and don't quit shooting until the deer goes down or you can shoot it anymore. Be prepared to track some distance as it probably will be necessary. I prefer my "reduced" .30 cal loads to be equal to full power 30-30 loads.......including the 30-30. Starting off with minimum leaves no room to spare on the lower end.........

Larry Gibson

the 30-30 is capable of a lot more than that without even trying.
a 170 at 1800 fps is sooo easy and recoil free.
my 50 cal muzzle loader is in the 1600 fps area also with a 230 gr roundball.
i just consider it a 44 mag.

i can see where you are trying to not use gas checks and save a nickle, but any animal deserves a bit better than that.
if your shots were within 50-60 yds a soft boolit at 1300 would suffice if you were patient with your shot.
it would be similar to shooting a skinny 357

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

Lamar I think you mean a 180 gr round ball for 50 cal. I've taken deer with the Lee 170 gr FP at 2K in 30/30 works fine, 1500 for the 10 gr Unique should work too.

Boolit Master Join DateMar 2012LocationArkansasPosts626

I have thought about this before also. I have a good load that runs 1250-1300 out of my 30-30 with 8 grains unique behind a 170 fn boolit.

I am a good shot with it and figured if I needed, I could take a head/neck shot easy under 100 yards. But I also have a load that pushes the same boolit to 1900 fps easy, it just uses more powder and a check. $.13 is worth knowing I have a round in my gun comparable to factory ammo.

But if I was squirrel hunting, durring rifle season for deer, and I had the light load, I would not hesitate to take a well place shot. Poachers favorite weapon is a .22lr, my light load is twice what a .22 is.

And just to clarify my .490/178 patched RB leaves the muzzle at 1600+fps from a CVA frontier carbine 24" barrel.

Boolit Master Join DateDec 2009LocationQuilcene, WashingtonPosts838

I have shot reduced loads in my Mossberg 30-30 (not that new monstrosity) with both Trail Boss and 5744 at the 1150-1250 fps and the Lee 160 gr RNGC. Shot great but opted for a "hotter" load at 1550 fps as more versatile.

Add a measly 3gr of unique to your original 10gr and you'll push the 170 out @ 1650-1700 with so little recoil you'll think it's a 243 in your hands. You'll spend more on gas just starting your truck to go hunting than what you'll spend on powder for a "reliable killer load" so why scrimp?
Use enough gun, enough powder, enough lead....then you know you'll never kick yourself in the pants for "I should've .......instead of .......". JMHO though

An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."

yeah 180 not 230.
i was picturing a 230-rn 45 acp boolit in my head for some odd reason.
thanks, scott.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

yeah 180 not 230.
i was picturing a 230-rn 45 acp boolit in my head for some odd reason.
thanks, scott.It's called CRS, I think?

i was remembering okay, just the wrong thing...
i was gonna look at the weight on the box but i forgot where i put it, and the powder horn and my quick loaders....maybe crs did kick in.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

Has anyone hunted with reduced 30/30 loads? Say maybe a 10 grain unique load for deer? A muzzleloader does good with a round ball at about 850 or 900 fps so I don't see why 170 grain bullet at 1200 or 1300 would not do the trick. Any info would be very helpful. ThanksIf you can afford the rifle and the fixins, put enough powder of some kind behind that bullet to get 1800-2200 FPS and kill cleanly. I have killed a deer with a .30 Mauser but that is not the way to do it if there are other choices. A .45 round ball at 850 to 1000 FPS is a lot more killer that a .308 bullet at the same velocity.

150 grain cast boolit over 26 grains RL7 does not kick. Runs over 2,000 fps.
You could back that off a couple grains too.
I've shot 16.0 grains of 2400 under the same 150gr Saeco and it seamed to kick more evn though velocity is three hundred or so fps slower. Pressure was higher also. Lee makes a good 150 grain flat nose.

A 10gr Unique plinker load may be fun a plinker load but also may very well be up to the hunting task on smaller deer with the right shot placement. I'm giving it some serious thought at the moment. I don't always get the optimum shot and sometimes it's a big hog or a tough old buck that needs culling. I don't want marginal, I want decisive.
A good 170 gr boolit @ 1500 fps, well alloyed and well placed should do the job quite well. I prefer a more powerful round but if I do my part I think the Unique/Universal load is up to it.

Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

Boolit Master Join DateSep 2007Posts192

The topic seems to always provide for spirited debate and I doubt that is a bad thing. The discussions about what cartridge/load/fpe etc are often driven as much by emotion as fact, perhaps more. Since opinions are on the table I'll offer my own although they address the broader subject rather than just the .30-30.

1. In context of cast bullets FPE is largely irrelevant as a relative metric for lethality.
2. Placement and the bullet's terminal performance is very relevant.

Insofar as item 1 above, if one is inclined to look back in time in examination of what was accepted a century or so back, there will be a realization that with few exceptions most cartridges and muzzle loaders were velocity limited by the characteristics of black powder. To regulate power one juggled caliber more than velocity. With such arms the West was won, the States savaged each other terribly and the bison was placed on Extinction's front porch. Today we replicate such performance in many ways, though in some cases it may be a pistol which rises to the level of a .45-70 and so forth. OR, it may just be a cast bullet load from a .30-30/.25-20/.32-40. Why? Fairly simple actually. Unless paper patched or hard cast, such bullets are somewhat velocity limited. In the case of the latter, hard cast may or may not work well for target work, but its terminal performance is questionable for thoracic shot placement on large game. It is not questionable for CNS shots, but this raises the bar for bullet placement and knowledge of anatomy.

In the case of paper patch bullets, we can drive them at higher velocity and with the softer alloy achieve profound expansion despite rather anemic FPE numbers, this in comparison to current day CF rounds using cup and core bullets, splashed with favorable press etc. etc. ad nauseum. As example, 300 grains of pure lead of .422" diameter and at a nominal velocity of 1600 fps at the muzzle does not generate terribly impressive FPE numbers. I say this in context of the range wherein it strikes the target, not muzzle energy. I've yet to put powder burns on a deer's hide, though it has been close a few times. It is in the same general realm as the original .45-70 Govt BP loads with the same weight bullet. The load strikes game like Thor's Hammer. The bullet will expand to 2+ diameters, survive bone strikes and penetrate anywhere from 14-30" depending on what it hits in the way of bone or tissue density,ie lungs vs. flesh. It creates an enormous wound channel (permanent). It will make armadillos explode. Literally.

This leads to item #2. There are two ways to kill a critter. One can disrupt the CNS or cause a bleed out. That is the simple truth. Given the sedate velocity generally applied to cast or patched bullets we can ignore the always joyous discussion of hydrostatic shock (a misnomer)...praise be to Jaysus! One may or may not have the opportunity or skill to utilize a CNS shot so I'll leave that topic alone. Suffice to say if you violate the brain or spinal column it matters little what the numbers or alloy is.

So if we're trundling along at low to intermediate velocities and aiming for the boiler room, we are at the mercy of our bullet caliber, form and alloy to make a wound channel sufficient to cause rapid bleed out. We also need to have deep penetration, hopefully thru and thru on broadside shots at the likes of deer and hogs.

Penetration is a function of sectional density and momentum. Momentum = mass x velocity. Sectional density=M/7000 ? d2. The significant part of this is found in not in the sectional density of a static bullet, but rather what it retains as it transits the animal. SD for a given bullet is, in simple terms, inversely proportional to diameter^2. It is also a ratio without dimension. As a bullet expands the SD ratio decreases. With that said, this is the benchmark for successful bullet design and application for a given bullet at a given velocity on a particular game animal. This is regulated by velocity, alloy and form. Reducing velocity is in my experience a more tractable method of increasing penetration since slower soft bullets will not expand so much as compared to higher velocity loadings for a given design and alloy (read: reduced loads). There is little latitude available for significant alteration of momentum in this arena for a given caliber and bullet weight, at least in comparison to conventional cup and core loaded cartridges.

Lastly, while I recognize the vast range of opinions on this topic, including my own, I do not concern myself with what others may or may not achieve in the field. It has been my observation that committee actions and popular consensus seldom have anything to do with the reality of what is possible, or what any one individual is capable of doing. It is incumbent upon the individual to find success. I think too it is useful to explain to those who ask questions about this the very fundamental issues at play, and by that I mean the science far more than opinion. That they have the wit to ask means to me they can, with good direction, reach the conclusions necessary for success.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html

PS: I have very thick skin.

I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

More has been done with less. Not to say I would do it, but a few months ago, a member shot and killed deer with a 30-30 and 7 grains of Red Dot, if I remember correctly. Got pretty good penetration, too. I'm in the 1800 fps camp myself. If you insist on trying, keep the shots short (under 50 yards) and wait for a good shot. Plenty of folks out there shooting deer with subsonic .300 Whisper/BO loads which isn't a whole lot different than what you are suggesting. Plenty of lost deer stories with the .300s as well...

Last edited by Silvercreek Farmer; 02-25-2013 at 02:27 PM.

Not quite what the OP is asking, but a few blokes I know carry half a dozen or so downloaded cartridges for coup de grac? shots.

These are hunters/shooters/cullers who may fire into a mob of 30 or so goats for pest destrucition, so the rule is get as many as possible onto the ground as fast as possible. They then follow up to finish them off, so having low powered rounds to head shoot at close range is much safer than firing full power loads, especially on rocky ground with the increased risk of ricochet, skull/projectile fragments, etc.

If one takes to the woods with "THE BOWHUNTERS MINDSET" no (real)gun is too small if you have the skill....but at which point do you want to limit your ability/opportunity to do what you set out to do? That is a choice each one of us must juggle in our own mind as we are the only ones who truly know what we are capable of. Some people feel a 7MAG is the minimum, some say 30-06, other will throw out the 30-30....... and others hunt deer with sticks and sharp stones........in the end YOU MUST DECIDE.

Personally I have humanely killed deer with everything from sharp stones on a stick all the way up to superdooperearsplittenloudenboomers.....None of them died "any better" or "any worse" ...the limitations in range and opportunity varied immensely however. If killing deer with loads that rival the 32/20 is your bag and you have the skill and the restraint to properly administer that little pill...by all means do it. Do I want every Joe Shmoe in the workd doing it....GOD NO!, but if you HONESTLY can and you must....JUST DO IT, do a good job and never apologize for it.

[QUOTE=RoyEllis;2070840]Add a measly 3gr of unique to your original 10gr and you'll push the 170 out @ 1650-1700 with so little recoil you'll think it's a 243 in your hands. [QUOTE]

I would check your manual BEFORE trying that......... That's a little more than 2 gr. over listed maximum.

45 2.1

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Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading
Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt"

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