Alliant shotgun powders in CF rifle cases

When they start to become more readily available again, I want to start shooting the slower Alliant shotgun powders in my .30 and .35 caliber rifles (and a .24 or .25 if I should ever find one).

Question is, of the following list, which ones have you tried and found to work well:

• Blue Dot (I've had some good experinces with this one in the '06)
• Pro Reach
• Steel
• 410

...and, how do they rate against ol' 2400?

Thanks,
MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

only one i have ever heard of and used on the list is the steel powder.
it is a bulkier less temperature sensitive blue -dot.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

I use B D at 19.2gn in my 7x57 for the 160gn bullet at 1900fps and in my 6.5 Gm with 9gn under a 123gn bullet for 1750fps and even use it in my 20 VT for a sweet little under 200 yd rabbit load where 9gn gets the 34gn Nosler bullet away at a very decent 2700fps.
21gn Red Dot gets a 350gn bullet to 1500fps and great plinking fun but have also taken a number of goats with this load.

A 7x57 and a 404, all a man needs anywhere,anytime,ever.

only one i have ever heard of and used on the list is the steel powder.
it is a bulkier less temperature sensitive blue -dot.Tell us about your experiences with Steel.

I made links to Alliant's webpages describing Pro Reach, Steel and 410 just for those who haven't yet heard of them.

MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

i have only used it in the 44 mag 45 colt and the 30-06.
it just shoots like anything else.
nothing weird or spectacular it doesn't meter worth a darn.
it makes some sweet steel shot loads though.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

I use the steel in the 30-30 for plinker and CBA postal matches, also buckshot, slug, squirrel, and turkey loads. I bought 5lbs of it a while back because I thought I was going to get back into duck hunting. I ran out of 2400 while testing and never restocked on it (darn), because it did well in the 30-30. So I tried the steel. In my experience, trying to come close with a load with burn rate charts it seems to be a bit faster than the 2400 in reality from what the burn rate charts imply. To where as I have got close to 1" groups at times with about 19 gr of 2400, I could only put about 14 gr of steel in the 30-30 94, (think). In my opinion it has to be weighed or dipped. I don't know what your expectations are but here is only one example. There is really not a whole lot of data for it in cartridge cases though. I think I have been having lube problems in low vel loads and WW alloy castings, but that is another matter.

Blue Dot and Green Dot in the 223 are great all the way from 22M levels to full house. DO NOT DOUBLE CHARGE . See Accurate Reloading Forum data lists for more. Simply amazing!

BvT

Basically, I'm looking for an Alliant 2400 backup/alternative without going to 4759 (the latter of which, I have plenty).

Right now I'm using WC-820 in my 358W which is working pretty well (also works in the .350RM!) but every now and again I get a clinker over the chronograph that makes me think there's probably a better substitute available; therefore, my interest in shotgun powders which should work better at 20K PSI and under. I don't recall using much 820 in the '06 but it has proven to be a good choice in the 30-30 at 1600-1700 fps. I think GD, RD and Unique are a little fast burning for my intended use which is .25-.35 caliber hunting weight boolits (PB and GC) at 1300+ fps. I like the idea of Alliant 410 which is a flake powder designed for the .410 shotgun.

MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

I too use Alliant Steel as a replacement for 2400. Its close to the same burn rate but is a flake powder so the same weight charge better fills the case to a higher density.
I have been using it in 211 FB, 22/250, 6x45, 6mm Rem, 308 Win, and 30/06.
I have been doing a lot of rather long range shooting to 550 yards with a 308 loaded with 20gn Steel and a 200gn NEI DD boolit. It clocks just under 2000 fps and has given groups of less than MOA at 100 yards. Average extreme spread was 16 fps. It holds pretty consistently at about 2 MOA to the longest ranges I have been shooting, 550 yards. At that range it is no big deal to keep a bowling ball moving if the wind will cooperate and a bowling ball is maybe about 1.5 MOA at that range.
The only draw back is that Steel does not meter well but 2400 will. I shoot weighed charges of Steel but the results seem worth it.

I was wondering about the 410 but for me it was for use in 44Mag and 45Colt. Another thread used 20/28 and found it almost identical to Unique. Email to Alliant confirmed the burn rate similar so that seemed like a good swap to me.

Bullshop,

That sounds pretty good to me.

The ease of metering attribute is something I can live without. If I need to put ammo together quickly (by saving powder handling time) I always use #9 anyway.

Thanks,
MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

I was wondering about the 410 but for me it was for use in 44Mag and 45Colt. Another thread used 20/28 and found it almost identical to Unique. Email to Alliant confirmed the burn rate similar so that seemed like a good swap to me.2028 might be good too but for now it sounds a little fast burning... unfortunately, I can't try 'em all.

410 is interesting but I've heard some "rumors?" contradicting Alliant's claim of "Consistent performance in any weather".

MJ

It's not about gun control, it's about people control. The progressives are using terrorists and the insane to further their agenda. If the socialist news media wasn't complicit, we could sit back and watch Fast & Furious and Benghazi-gate unfold.

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Opinions please; have mold, now I need a cartridge and rifle!

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2012LocationBethlehem, PAPosts8

I got a pretty good deal on a NOE 4 cavity 225 55gr FN. I initially thought I would use this gas checked in my AR15, but I'm having second thoughts as to that working in a gas gun. Anybody use this in an AR? If not, what cartridge and model rifle would you suggest for this bullet. I'm thinking 22 Hornet, 218 Bee. What other cartridges use .224-.225 and 55gr successfully?

Thanks,
Craig

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

Works great in my AR. IMR4064 is showing progress for an accuracy load and as yet I have not seen any leading.

I know this answer ! You get an ol' rattle trap Carcano and a bbl blank and set it up in 224 Weatherby Varmit Master.

Here's mine in 7RWH. A 7mm 6.8 Rem neckup .

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Best 30 to 40 caliber rifle to use with cast boolits for big game

Boolit Mold Join DateApr 2013LocationPennsylvaniaPosts18

I will be buying a new rifle in the near future in 30 to 40 Caliber. My intent is to use 100% cast for said rifle. Opinions wanted on rifles that work very well with cast. I will be using this for mainly deer and Bear so I will need something with enough knock down power for the game mentioned. Please mention barrel lengths, twist rates etc... Looking forward to hearing from you guys as to what works. Thanks...

Nothing wrong with a 30-06, 30-30, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen, 8mm Mauser, 38-55, 375 H&H

All of those can and will shoot cast just as well as jaxeted bullets.

I went with 375 H&H Mag ... Not that I plan in getting rid of rifle ... Glad I have it, but brass is pricey?

Brass availability is a resource that "wears out"!

The .358 has a good sized boolit, and brass is relatively available, or can be made from .308

Read this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175095-358-Winchester-Cast-Make-Sense

Do you have a action preference?

Shawn

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"I am a man of peace, but if war comes to my door it will find me home."

Winston Churchill

My personal favorite if you're leaning towards a levergun is a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. Rifles aren't very common and for new cases you're limited to Winchester unless you stumble across some Remingtons. Not a real issue, I just prefer the Remington case. I use the Ranch Dog 359-190 mould; out of production but quite possibly available from Lee or NOE. A better choice for a levergun may be the 375 Winchester or .38-55. I don't have any CB experience with either but I've hunted with the .375 in a Winchester Big Bore with j-words and it is a solid performer. Cases should be easier to find or make and there are some really good 38 caliber moulds in use around here. For a sentimental favorite I like my 94 in .32 Winchester Special loaded up with the RD 323-170. It's not a serious hunting rifle for me but it certainly could be.
For a bolt gun the 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen would be my choice for short and long actions, respectively. No hands on expereince with either but I've been studying on them a bit lately. Cases are no problem, the Winchester can be made from .308's and the Whelen from .30-06's, IIRC. I'm considering reboring a shot-out .30-06 to 35 Whelen, after a trip to JESS all I'll need is a set of dies.

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Boolit Master Join DateJan 2006LocationMissouri OzarksPosts535

.405 Winchester. Easier on brass than the .375 H&H.

Best,
Mike

NRA Life Member
Remember Ira Hayes

Have a Marlin 375, C Sharps 38-55 & a 35 Whelen built on a 1909 argi action. If I had to pick one it would be the Whelen for anything I would want to hunt.

Gun control 1ST ROUND ON TARGET.

35 whelen 24" tube 1/14 twist 200gr cast boolit 2400fps will thump anything out to 200yds.

I like the 45-70 myself but in lever guns the 30-30 is good too. you can load a nice heavy boolit for big game and load down for fun and varmits.

if you're going bolt a 308 or 30-06 give a good choice of boolit weights.

for bear i think of my 45-70 as a 12ga. with brass shells

what I hand-load; 45 acp; 223 rem(5.56mm); 22-250 rem; 243 win; 30-30 win; 308 win; 45-70 gov.
on the list to start Loading; 9 mm; 270 win; 30-06 springfield; 222 rem

"You might be a gun nut if you load 45-70 on a progressive press" -HICKOK45<- was he talking about me!?!

---
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Boolit Mold Join DateMay 2009LocationOmaha NEPosts13

All catridges listed above are good choices but here is one of my top favorites: 38-55 WCF, 255 FN, 950 to 1,850 fps; Easy to cartridge to load and my rifles are not finicky about loads everything shoots well in them.
You can find NIB 30+ year old guns that are $500 less than the New Winchesters that are made in Japan. (Oliver F Winchester, Chief Crazy Horse, Legendary Frontiersmen, or Texas Sequential (this one is kind of rare))

I was horrified a few years ago shooting while my 38-55’s and 30-30’s in low light. I had trouble seeing my front sight and came up with an excuse for another rifle.

I made a wild cat based on the 300 WSM necked to .416 with a super long neck kind of looks like a 577-450 Martini; my goal was a cast only gun for dark timber big game. It is on a SS REM M SEVEN, 20" bbl, 1:18 Twist, 1-3X scope, HS ultralight stock; 315 gr - 1,300 to 2,300 fps & 400 gr 1,225 to 2,050 fps; I could go faster but it begins to hurt shooting off the bench once the 400's are above 1,700 fps.

Another favorite of mine is the 350 Rem Mag but I would probably recomend a 358 Win or 35 Whelen as you could have a 308 or 30/06 rebored for less than a new bbl.

My father-in-law has a Sako M85 in 338 Federal and the LEE 339-220 RN's shoot very well it it from Trailboss loads to full loads of 4064.

Good Luck!

Considering the times, my choice is a .30. A .30-30 will drive a 175 grain paper patched or very hard grease groove bullet to 2200 fps. If that is not enough whomp, a .30-06 will push a 220 bullet 2400+. Easy on powder and lead, plentiful brass and will kill anything that walks this half of the world.

i have a 30-06 that is my go to hunting rifle for big game , if i ever get another , without selling mine ill get a
.35 whelen , for (pigs and smaller ) medium game my sks with a 175 gr flat nose boolit @ 1700fps, and 30-06 cases can be resized/reloaded to shoot the .35 whelen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.35_Whelen

Boolit Mold Join DateApr 2013LocationPennsylvaniaPosts18

I am surprised no one is mentioning the 444 Marlin. Thought that would be a popular choice?

I am surprised no one is mentioning the 444 Marlin. Thought that would be a popular choice?Well ... it is a tad bigger than the .40 requested ...

The 32 Special is a necked up 30/30 ... for another option ...

Shawn

John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"I am a man of peace, but if war comes to my door it will find me home."

Winston Churchill

I think a 358 Win or 35 Whelen is about ideal. Good bullet weight, good diameter unexpanded, able to get good velocity. Makes for a very good 200 yard deer/bear gun with cast.

That said, I use a 45-70 and 375 H&H for my hunting needs these days. 45-70 is a hammer up close, the 375 just reaches out there easier due to higher intal velocity with reasonable recoil.

I would exclude the 32-20, 38x40 and the 7.62x39 and take on almost any other rifle cartridge.

[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

Gotta love a question that basically has no wrong answers.

30-30, .308, 30-06, 7.65X53, 32SPCL, 8X57, 35REM, 358WIN, 35Whelen, 9X57....... etc, etc, etc........Just PICK ONE and go kill something.

"Happiness is a target rich environment"

Boolit Master Join DateNov 2006Posts933

I'll take a .356 Win. in a levergun #1, the .358 W. and 358 Whelen for boltguns, then a 38/55.....these are also the most cast bullet friendly of the small bores.

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What hardness for rifle loads ?

I have searched but didn't find an answer.
I'm loading 185gr. GC boolit for the 30-06 going around 1700 - 1800 fps.
What would be the hardness range I'm looking for ?
I have been casting WW/water dropping and WW/air cooling, what might be the hardness difference between the two.
I know there are variables but where do I start, is there a table somewhere ?

1700 to 1800 fps I have had good luck with alloy at 13 to 15 bhn. The velocity is not as criticle as the pressure. You can get that velocity at a wide pressure range depending on the powder burn rate you use. The lower the pressure the softer the alloy can be to still get good accuracy
WW now generally run about 10 air cooled. WW quenched if they are hot enough and you use ice water I have gotten them to over 20 bhn.

1700 to 1800 fps I have had good luck with alloy at 13 to 15 bhn. The velocity is not as criticle as the pressure. You can get that velocity at a wide pressure range depending on the powder burn rate you use. The lower the pressure the softer the alloy can be to still get good accuracy
WW now generally run about 10 air cooled. WW quenched if they are hot enough and you use ice water I have gotten them to over 20 bhn.Thanks,
I have been water dropping into room temp water.
Also using 18gr. 2400

Mike Venturino one of the writers of Handloader magazine uses linotype (22 bhn) in his military surplus rifles. He also uses the soft SPG lube. You can read his latest artical concerning this in April 2013 issue on news stands now.

Linotype is veryeasy to cast with. Usually around 600-650 degrees. Makes purdy boollits

I obsessed with hardness for a while. Due to some insights gained here regarding boolit fit and lower-pressure powder use, i have basically forgotten about it. In my recent attempts to get past 2200 fps or so in my 30-30 and 30-06 i have some water dropped curing. Its been a few weeks so they are prob up to 20-25 bhn. I should check tonight.

Same alloy (pretty much COWW) was shot above 2k with no problems related to boolit hardness. Im definitely not a rifle loading expert but it seems that too much focus is given to hardness.

Besides, you will get better boolit expansion with a little softer alloy. The gas check and boolit obturation are keeping the lead fouling away, for me anyway

i'm sure what you are doing is working.
I use the exact same formula for most of my rifle loads.
18 grs of 2400 and a water dropped boolit.

I haven't met a piece of paper, rock, ground squirrel, grouse, or deer that hasn't been handled by this combination yet.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

I heat treat my boolits when I want them to go fast and usually end up 24-28 bhn. There's them as holds that fit is king and a good enough fittin' boolit will do just fine, no matter how soft. I agree that fit is most important, but I find that once you get much beyond the 1800 fps mark, accuracy suffers and leading starts unless your boolits are harder than the typical WW air cooled. I do not water drop because it is easier to size soft boolits than hard ones. I size and seat gas checks, then heat treat using Dennis Marshall's technique. Since all the boolits hit the ice water at the same time, they all tend to be about the same hardness.

_________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

Boolit Master Join DateJan 2012LocationSaskatchewan CanadaPosts252

I also use the same velocity but cast my boolits a bit softer than yours. I have cast and shot many 50/50 WW and pure lead boolits to 1700+ (air cooled gas checked). I have no idea what the BHN of that alloy is but it does work well in my rifles and leaves virtually spotless bores with speed green. I have also cast with Lyman #2 which is much harder, and honestly I do not see much if any improvement in accuracy at those velocities, in my rifles. The boolits cast better and look better with lino or #2 and do cast slightly bigger.

IMHO, go ahead and use the straight air cooled WW alloy. It will give good results at those velocities.

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Primers at Natchess.. Win, CCI, & tula... pistol and rifle...

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New to rifle bullet casting

Boolit Mold Join DateApr 2012LocationIllinoisPosts8

I have cast for pistols for about a year now, 9mm and 45. I am looking into casting for 5.56 and am finding myself buried in information that may or may not be absolutely relevant. The rifle is a colt 6920 with a 1/7 twist barrel. I am thinking that bullet weights in the 62 to 70gr range would be best. what are the recommended available bullet mold options out there?

My lead is range scrap so I get a good mix of the alloys that everyone is shooting in their pistols. I have no idea what the hardness of the lead is and would like to avoid GC's if possible. plan to keep velocities just above those required for cycling the action.

Please correct and advise

I cast for rifles, but never anything as small as .223. I also don't cast for an AR, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think you're going to get a bullet with no gas check to cycle your rifle and give any accuracy at all. Usually a plain-based bullet needs to be kept in the less than 1,200fps. or so range for any accuracy. Also, I don't know what your range scrap consist of, but I'm thinking most range scrap won't be hard enough. Water dropping or heat treating may get you there? Just have to try and see. I do think you've chosen quite a challenging combination for your first attempt at rifle casting. I'm sure more experienced folks will be along to offer advise more based in experience.
Good Luck,
Rick

my 2?
You are gonna need a GC for an AR. PB boolit molds in 22 cal are kinda rare, I have one, a Ranch Dog 50gr, but it was a special request to have the GC shank reamed...and this one is way too light for your 1:7

Range scrap will not be hard enough, but maybe if you heat treat or water drop them.

You are right about the weight boolit you want.
Good Luck,
Jon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I will be offering the GC seater plate for the lyman 45.
Also I have replacement springs for the Lyman 45 lubesizer, If your's is weak or missing, let me know

BlackTalon:

+1 concerning gas checks on your boolit.

Be prepared to spend some time and experimentation on developing an accurate load. Even if your doing mostly man size targets at 100 yds and less, you are going to want to know what groupings you can achieve from the bench so as to to determine if you or the loads are at fault if shooting results in open groups or misses.

You might review the following two threads and see if the 65 Grain and 75 Grain molds might strike your fancy. Both Group buys are in the near closing phase, so you might want to add your name to the list soon if interested.

65 Grain
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?188864-Fourth-Run-for-MiHec-22-Nato-%2865-gr-version%29-brass-four-amp-six-cavity-solid

75 Grain
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?188868-MiHec-22-Nato-Heavy-%2875-gr-version%29-brass-four-amp-six-cavity-solid

Mustang

keep us posted on the whole outcome.
i'll advise trying for about 700 fps with the peramiters you outline for how you wanna do it.

it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

Boolit Mold Join DateApr 2012LocationIllinoisPosts8

Those molds look great! I am very tempted to sign on. Is .227 a cast and shoot dia or do the bullets need to be sized? For all my pistol casting the finished product is about .001 over their jacketed counterparts and are ready to shoot right after lubricating. .227 seems extreme over .224

Boolit Bub Join DateNov 2011LocationSoCalPosts39

as i understand it, to gain hardness by water drop or with heat treating you need a small amount of arsenic. clip on wheel weights have some arsenic, not sure about range scrap.

cast a few and check in a week if water dropped are harder than air cooled.

(20 mins later) after some thought, commercial cast are usually harder than what we cast- how do they do it? i assume arsenic/heat treating is cheaper and gets harder than tin... i'll have to cast up some range scrap and see if they respond to water drop

Last edited by BadDaditood; Yesterday at 11:42 PM.

as i understand it, to gain hardness by water drop or with heat treating you need a small amount of arsenic. clip on wheel weights have some arsenic, not sure about range scrap.Antimony is needed for HT, arsenic is frosting on the cake and will allow HT well beyond what the percentage of Sb would suggest.

Most commercial jacketed bullets will have varying percentages of Sb, a few as high as 5%.

Rick

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BLACKTALON

You've picked one of the hardest cartridge/rifle combinations to begin with. I doubt anyone but a hardcore Colt fan knows what a 6920 is. Probably a lot that have a sililar AR but based on that description don't know what you are talking about. I suggest a bit more common description would help......just a suggestion.

Your range scrap is useable if it the atypical mix of mostly cast and jacked bullet alloy. I suggest you make it much better for the application at hand by adding 2 -3% tin to it and add 20 - 30% tin. Then the bullets cast hot and WQ'd will be "hard" enough to withstand the 7" twist at a reasonable velocity. There will already be enough arsenic in the mix so adding more isn't necessary.

There is no way to avoid the use of GCs if you want reliable functioning with your AR. If you want to manually cycle the action for each shot then a PB'd cast bullet will do. Either bullet will do but I would get one that allows magazine use with the GC not seated below the case neck. You will want to use a medium to slow burning powder that ignites and burns well at lower psi. I suggest starting with H4895 and then move to Varget, RL19, AA4350, H4831SC or RL22. With any of them use a 1/3 gr dacron filler when load density is less than 80%. Start low and work up until the action just function reliably. that is where your best accuracy will be with the 7" twist.

Larry Gibson

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My first rifle boolits

Been casting for my 45 acp for close to 2 months now but just getting started on rifles. I had to tinker with my Lee mould but with the info I have found here my mould drops nicely & everything seems to be going smoothly so far. I picked up some 2400 powder as it seems to be popular for 30.06 & 30.30 and should work nicely with this 170 gr slug. I hope to test them out on Monday or tuesday.

They look pretty good, let us know how they fly.

Been casting for my 45 acp for close to 2 months now but just getting started on rifles. I had to tinker with my Lee mould but with the info I have found here my mould drops nicely & everything seems to be going smoothly so far. I picked up some 2400 powder as it seems to be popular for 30.06 & 30.30 and should work nicely with this 170 gr slug. I hope to test them out on Monday or tuesday.I recently cast up some 30 cal boolits for the first time with some unused Lee molds that I bought 2 or 3 years ago. I had lots of sticky cavities. was this your experience as well ?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?189534-Lee-30-cal-2-cav-molds-not-necessarily-as-advertised&highlight=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I will be offering the GC seater plate for the lyman 45.
Also I have replacement springs for the Lyman 45 lubesizer, If your's is weak or missing, let me know

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Using Lee Rifle FCD to compress base of bullet

Boolit Buddy Join DateAug 2010LocationTennesseePosts69

I am knocking around a weird idea, so I thought I would ask here. Would it be possible to use a rifle FCD to compress the bottom of a PBS 9 mm lead bullet enough to seat a regular gas check? I told you it was weird.

That is not the first time I've read your idea. It is neither new nor weird. It works. I prefer to use plain base gas checks I make from soda can material. They work very well and are fun to make. I only have 1 35 cal gas check mold and 1 45 cal gas check mold. The rest are plain base molds. I would like to remove the gas check shanks from both molds so I never have to buy or trade for regular checks again. I have a standard check maker in 30 cal and 1 on order for 22 cal but the rest will be plain base checks for me.

"A person cannot exercise their right to speak freely if they have been stripped of their ability to defend themselves and repel those forces who would seek to quell their speech." Me

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