Blew up my gun -- need help with the autopsy

If they call it "common sense" then why is it so uncommon!

its odd, the whole he / she thing should not matter... but it does all of my guns seem to know who's shooting them. i always seem to get that rather large flyer, when the wife shoots them all the holes seem to be in the right spot. come to think about it she fishs better then i do also... maybe tonight i'll see if she can dig fence post better then i do or take out the trash... glad to hear your ok, i said it before and i'll say it again. your not the first this has happened to and you won't be the last. Ive had rounds go poof that should have gone bang, and i've even had a ND... if we all wanted to be 100% safe we'd sit inside, but even then some idiot would fall off the couch.

Bwana, what are you saying? "Concentric with the flash hole and at varying distances (with different manufacturers, calibers, etc.) there is a crack which forms as the case is made. Some are more pronounced than others;?"
Steve

"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
Life member NRA, USPSA, ISRA
Life member AF&AM 294

Bwana, what are you saying? "Concentric with the flash hole and at varying distances (with different manufacturers, calibers, etc.) there is a crack which forms as the case is made. Some are more pronounced than others;?"
SteveI didn't understand that either so just bypassed it.

Miss Pat, glad it wasn't worse for you. I'm a little slower than some to assume fault in any particular direction. Out of battery is certainly a valid possibility as is an overcharge. A stuck firing pin can cause all kinds of trouble. I had the firing pin jam forward on a Ruger MkI many years ago. It's amazing what their cyclic rate is. There was a burr on the stamped firing pin, I stoned it off and haven't had another problem with it in 30 years. If you can do the forensics and determine where the brass was when the kaboom happened that would be very telling. What kind of powder measure and press do you use? That could help analyze the likelihood of an overcharge.

David

There is only one way of compromising the on Second Amendment. That is when Liberals call for Conservatives to compromise. What they really mean "give up just a little more of your rights just this once"- every time they call for compromise. Molon Labe!

Primer is slightly flattened, but not cratered. I don't THINK it was a double load of powder, since I am very careful, load in a turret press and visually check the powder level with a flashlight in each round before I place the boolit into position for seating. I'll have to check, but IIRC a double load of Red Dot will overflow the brass. (Though anything is possible, of course).

Thanks for your help!

Pat

It's possible it fired OOB, I am not familiar w/ that Sig model, but I am doubting it. Likely cause would be an over charge, not necessarily a double, & a weak piece of brass. Media stuck in the bottom of the case or throwing a "fat" charge. RD is very fast & 4.4gr is quite mild. You could have doubled, certainly possible if you weren't paying close attention, but something inside the case before charging could give a sim result.

EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

For those that may not be aware, Pat is NOT a guy, she is a fabulous young lady.
How could anyone wise off about someone having a little mess up ???
Has the forum gone south on us ??
Hang in Pat I'm sure the factory will do the best they can for you.
Most of all glad your OK.

Sam

*Cohesiveness*Leadership*a common cause***

The effective range of an excuse is ZERO Meters

Boolit Master Join DateFeb 2007LocationHuntington, IndianaPosts317

Hello Pat. It's good to hear you are still in one piece.
In reference to firing out of battery, the Sig design will not permit this.
I own and load for several P series Sigs including two P245's. The P245 is nothing more than a chopped and channelled P220. Shortening things changes timing and angles necessary to make the beast function.
Ammo the P220 thrives on may choke the P245. Extra care is warranted when loading.
My first impression of your kaboom would be case related, compressed powder charge, or a combination of both.
Keep on loading and keep on learning.

I use that exact boolit and charge in a different 45ACP than the Kahr I'm fooling with now. It is by no means anywhere near a hot load and should not have done that with good brass.
I'm leaning towards a slight crack in the brass that you may have overlooked when reloading it or a double charge. Even with less than adequate crimp I don't think you could set back the boolit enough to cause a spike in pressure sufficient to blow up a Sig. I've had a few Sig's including a 239 and a 220 which the 245 is a shortened version of and they are stout guns to say the least.
BTW: the flattened primer makes me lean toward the double charge.
Glad your ok, a gun can be replaced.

Only advice I can offer is riding on the coat tails of the already offered advice of avoiding flake powders. I avoid Unique, Red Dot, and a few other of the larger flake offerings unless I'm using the Hornady Auto Charge. Flake powder is known to bog up in the measure and then dislodge some in the next drop. Sure, you can look the cases over in the loading block but you are trusting your eye to see that tiny bit extra. Alliant lists 4.5gr of Red Dot as the max standard pressure load under a 200gr SWC of similar design and I'm not sure what would go beyond a +P load with that powder into kaboom territory. My point in all this is I started with Unique, went to Bullseye, read an article talking about HP-38 (or Win 231) and have never wanted to buy anything else for most of my standard pressure pistol loads. It flows from every powder measure I have like mercury and I have to force myself to mess up to get it to drop at an erratic volume. RCBS Uniflow, Lyman #55, Lee Pro Auto, Lee PPM, Hornady LNL, they all drop HP-38/Win231 with that near perfect +/- .1gr tolerance. You can't undo what has been done but you can sure switch powders and all but eliminate the possibility of a stuck clump falling causing an over charge.

I'm not sure your right about 4.5gr being a max load with a 200gr boolit. My lymans go's up to 5.3 - 5.5 depending on the boolit. I'm shooting 4.6gr under a 200gr now and it's easy to control with no signs of pressure. This is in a Kahr CW45 which is nowhere near the solid gun the Sig p245 is.

For kicks I just loaded a double load of 8.8gr into a 45ACP case. No, I didn't shoot it as that comes near the upper limit for my 45Colt. It does almost fill the case to the top and would be pretty darn hard to miss.

Maximumbob,

You are so right about 231 -and the flake powders. If ever a fast powder deserved to be called delightful W231 is it. It also leaves my bores looking like they were just cleaned when shooting cast boolits.

David

There is only one way of compromising the on Second Amendment. That is when Liberals call for Conservatives to compromise. What they really mean "give up just a little more of your rights just this once"- every time they call for compromise. Molon Labe!

Apparently, the hint was not taken.
I cleaned this thread up.I swept up a few more nooks and crannies.

The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!

I'm not sure your right about 4.5gr being a max load with a 200gr boolit. My lymans go's up to 5.3 - 5.5 depending on the boolit. I'm shooting 4.6gr under a 200gr now and it's easy to control with no signs of pressure. This is in a Kahr CW45 which is nowhere near the solid gun the Sig p245 is.

For kicks I just loaded a double load of 8.8gr into a 45ACP case. No, I didn't shoot it as that comes near the upper limit for my 45Colt. It does almost fill the case to the top and would be pretty darn hard to miss.

As I said, it's from Alliant's listing:

Maximumbob,

You are so right about 231 -and the flake powders. If ever a fast powder deserved to be called delightful W231 is it. It also leaves my bores looking like they were just cleaned when shooting cast boolits.

David

I will admit that like most powders HP-38/Win 231 runs at its best and least unburned when run at near max pressures. But I've never had trouble maintaining that powder volume and it doesn't stray into +P territory. It's also my most trusted powder to use in the Lee Classic Turret when using the Pro Auto Disks for dropping the powder. It drops with such boring regularity that I have to promise to punch myself if I don't stop and check every tenth cartridge. And it's always the same.

As I said, it's from Alliant's listing:

I will admit that like most powders HP-38/Win 231 runs at its best and least unburned when run at near max pressures. But I've never had trouble maintaining that powder volume and it doesn't stray into +P territory. It's also my most trusted powder to use in the Lee Classic Turret when using the Pro Auto Disks for dropping the powder. It drops with such boring regularity that I have to promise to punch myself if I don't stop and check every tenth cartridge. And it's always the same.

I have that stuff downloaded and look at it on a regular basis and I checked it before starting load development with Red Dot for my 45ACP. I think that they are very conservative and when I cross reference with other sources they are always below eveyone else. That is what they say, however so I stand corrected.

Just trying to back up my big mouth is all. I do agree with they do seem to be at least a little conservative. Any idea of a listed max for a +P though? I've not found that.

Miss Pat, glad it wasn't worse for you. I'm a little slower than some to assume fault in any particular direction. Out of battery is certainly a valid possibility as is an overcharge. A stuck firing pin can cause all kinds of trouble.

David

Agree, and Pat, I'm glad you can still count to "five" on your hand and not need to use any finger more than once to do so.

For whatever it's worth, in the forty-plus years I've been reloading, I've been pretty shy about using Red Dot for anything in a handgun. I said "shy" and not that I refuse to, but I've had some Red Dot loads in my earlier years that I pushed to maximum get my attention in a bad way.

I primarily use Red Dot for my shotgun loads and some plinking rifle loads. For that particular boolit (Lee 200SWC), which is one of my absolute favorites, I use a light charge of Bullseye--something like 4.3 or 4.6. I've also used AA#2 and W231, which as said earlier, meter through ANY powder measure flawlessly.

I've also always been loathe to separate my plinking brass by headstamp, but it seems that I may have to start doing that as I'm beginning to acquire a collection of pure junk brass with funny headstamps I've never heard of or seen before.

God Bless the shooters that do not reload, but I just wish they'd use a better brand of ammo. . .

I doubt you actually got a double-charge, but sure as you-know-what, you got a compressed charge of some sort and quite possibly/probably combined with an inferior casing.

In other words, you experienced "the perfect storm."

I'm just glad you're okay. Guns can be fixed, repaired and/or replaced a lot easier than body parts.

Above Reproach A novel in which a series of mass-shootings coordinated by anti-American officials inside the U.S. government threatens not only the Second Amendment, but the entire Bill of Rights until one armed citizen finds himself with his back against the wall and fights back.

Boolit Bub Join DateNov 2006LocationIn the great USA!!!!Posts38

Pat, nice to hear you are okay. Most of all thank you for sharing you mishap with us. I just double checked some of my range brass I picked up from a local retailer I trust. I found a few .004 too short after resizing them. Loaded a few without primers and was able to push the boolit in a few thousands.

Hope this is helpful to you as well as other.

As long as it wasn't an A-Merc case...

Patsher,

I had a very similar experience with a Taurus 101. I was using my chrono, the boolit left the barrel and the chrono reading was normal. But the pistol blew up just like yours. It went straight down the magazine and blew up the barrel at the breech end. I chalked it up to unsupported brass as the 40 was a new cartridge at the time. I didn't know much about unsupported high pressure rounds at that time. Boy that really hurts your hand. I was lucky everything either went straight up or straight down. It still felt like somebody slammed my hand with a hammer. Taurus repaired the gun for free. Everything was locked up so I couldn't retrieve the brass case. I am still convinced the case blew out the bottom. Stuff happens.

I am very glad your were not seriously hurt. I hope Sig takes good care of you.

Courage is being scared to death-but saddling up anyway. John Wayne

A man has to do what a man has to do. John Wayne

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