Only Lyman Expander For Boolits?

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

I'm a noob to reloading. At present, I plan to load only for handguns, mostly hollow-based wadcutters to start, but also 85 gr. round noses for my 32 S&W (mainly because I can't find wadcutters that small). I was under the impression that Lee dies are fine for cast boolits, but I was looking at a certain brand of hard cast bullets and found this:

Thou Shalt Not Flare Case Mouths For Cast Bullets! Period! You MUST use the correct technique for preparing the case mouths to receive cast bullets without damaging them. And that is with the use of the Lyman 2 Step M Expander Die. This die imparts a 2 step I.D. into the case mouth. It creates a slip fit nest for the bullet to slide into. Thus preventing and eliminating the tipping of the bullet and the premature closure of the case mouth onto the bullet during the seating operation. Lyman 4 die sets are the only dies manufactured that will reload cast bullets and jacketed bullets interchangeably and correctly. And this is due to the 2 Step M die that is incorporated into their 4 die sets.

So now I feel like my plans to cast my own should be put on hold at least until I get some questions answered.

1. I've been using a Lee die for the wadcutters, opening the case mouth so the bullet easily fits in about 1/3 of the way and doesn't get taper crimped until it is just barely protruding from the case. The minimum COL for the load is the case length. Was doing it this way a mistake? I've been unable to find specific instructions for seating wadcutters

2. I've been using the same Lee die for the round noses and I haven't noticed any damage to the nose, but I'm concerned that I crimped the bases too much. How would I know if I'm crimping too tightly?

3. It seems to me that the bullets are sliding in very easily. How would I know if it was too easily?

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

I have read the very same Thou Shalt Not Flare Case Mouths For Cast Bullets! Period! and while I agree that using a two step expander of the exact correct dia. is best I have ignored this advice and loaded tens of thousands of 9MM,45ACP,.38 / .357 using an expander which does infact flare the case mouths . I adjust so there is just enough flare to center the boolit in the case and use my fingers to hold boolit vertical until it enters the seating die.

When it comes to full wad cutters seated flush or slightly below case mouth there is no logical way they can not be straight in the case. I have a s & W Model 52 which requires WC be so seated and I assure you it is extremely accuarte.

How would I know if I'm crimping too tightly? Unless one is loading high power rounds for a revolver then not much crimp is needed. With .38 special target loads just enough crimp to remove the flare should be enough.

NRA Endowment Member
Vet . 2nd of the 47th 9th.Inf. Viet Nam Mar. 67-68

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

When it comes to full wad cutters seated flush or slightly below case mouth there is no logical way they can not be straight in the case. I have a s & W Model 52 which requires WC be so seated and I assure you it is extremely accuarte. So I should seat them flush instead of slightly protruded? I was thinking that leaving them a little closer to the forcing cone might be a good thing.

Note I stated when loading for a S& W Mod. 52 they can not protrude. This is a semi auto made specificly for Bullseye competation. In revolvers you can leave them protruding as far as you wish as long as they do not prevent the cyclinder from turning. If the crimp and / or boolit tension is not enough and the load produces enough recoil the the cases will jump back which results in the OAL getting to long ,boolits extend out of the cylinders and it gets locked up.

You are correct being closer to the forcing cone is a good thing. Back when I shot PPC my comp. gun had the cyclinder shortened and the barrel set back so there was a very mininum jump from cylinder to forcing cone.

There have been an untold number of .38 spe. fired in .357s and that creates a somewhat major jump and in some case lead build up in the front of the cylinder in addation to the normal areas. Depends of how right you need it to be.

Last edited by Case Stuffer; Today at 08:09 AM.

NRA Endowment Member
Vet . 2nd of the 47th 9th.Inf. Viet Nam Mar. 67-68

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

Thanks, very informative. I may even leave the WCs protrude a little more now, because I have the cylinder length to do so. I will watch for maximum OAL. This is for a .32 H&R Mag and if slipping due to recoil is a problem I might even use the longer .327 Federal Mag cases with .32 H&R Mag loads to hold the WCs closer to the cone.

What the manufacturer is trying to say is that in some cases, flaring ALONE is not enough. Depending on the case sizing die dimensions, there is a possibility that the case body will be undersized to the point that the boolit will be either sized smaller and/or shave lead during seating. Both of these will degrade accuracy and possibly cause leading.

The solution is to either use a boolit that is hard enough to resist that sizing action, or another means of expanding the sized case enough to prevent sizing/shaving. The "M" die is a solution, or you can build your own tool if you have the tools and ability.

You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

I've heard about that site on a couple forums. IMHO; pure baloney! Yes, the Lyman M die is a good tool, but is not absolutely necessary for good lead bullet seating. I've been reloading lead (95% of my reloads) for 18 years and do not use an M die (I just ain't got around to buying one). I flare my cases and get good, safe, accurate ammo. I've pulled seated bullets and measured them and found that the vast majority of the lead bullets lose only .0005", if that much, in diameter from the case squishing the bullet. Either the author has a stake in Lyman or is getting a royalty for pushing M dies to be that close minded/opinionated about seating lead bullets...

Depending on your wadcutter design, seating can be anywhere from flush to cylinder length. Model 52s (semi-auto target pistol) were designed for .38 Special target shooting, and needed a flush seated bullet for reliable feeding.

I will say it's a reasonable statement of what the M die will do but waaay overstated! Ignoring the fact that RCBS makes a piece that does exactly the same thing, and some prefer that one.

If it were written only about loading rifle boolits I might even agree.

Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

What the manufacturer is trying to say is that in some cases, flaring ALONE is not enough. Okay, but are there expanders that only flare? Or expanders that don't expand deep enough for cast boolits? When I look at the expander plug in my die, it looks like it would expand the neck of a necked case, or the first 3/8" of a straight-walled case, before flaring the mouth. Otherwise, it could be shorter and more tapered. That's where my concern for not enough neck/case tension comes in and where I think I have to make sure I crimp enough but not too much. I like the simplicity of using the powder-through expander die. I'm making plinking ammo, not match grade, so precision/perfection is more for safety than accuracy.

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

You guys are great. I'm feeling better about casting my own when I collect up enough lead.

Boolit Mold Join DateSep 2012LocationN. Central IllinoisPosts15

I bought an M-die for M1 Carbine (designated .30 short) and .308 caliber (designated .30 long) a couple years ago. The one for the M1 carbine works great to expand and make a pocket for the lead bullet. Better accuracy with the M-die set ammo. The .308 has never been worth the effort for .30-'06, .30-30. The expander part is a hair to small to even touch full length sized brass. The most reliable tool is the Lee universal expander die. Follow the directions, work slowly, and it always gives just enough flare to prevent shaving. I know the Lee powder through die doubles as an expander but it does not have the feel for fine adjustments that the universal has. I won't bother with any more M-dies.

Boolit Mold Join DateJun 2010Posts12

The Lyman M-dies seem to work good for many calibers, but the Lee Expander is more reliable with cases that have thin necks - such as 30-30 Winchester and 303 British.

That quote is utter nonsense. Like most folks I prefer the Lyman two step/M-die expander but not because they produce better ammo that a simple flair. I like to set all of my bullets into the charged case in a loading block and have them stay there as I seat them one by one. Bullets set on a faired case mouth left to their own devices will rock and roll around, tilt and otherwise irritate me. I try to reduce life's irritations as much as possible.

While the case mouth type of flair/expansion isn't all that important, what size expander plug, viz-a-vi the bullet size is VERY important.

Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

Most of the pistol and strait/tapered case die sete (3 dies) already have the equivelent of the M-die; it is the seconde die. That includes Lee dies.

I use the Lee flair die to flair the case mouth with cases that have been sized with a bushing or other NSer that gives .001 - .003 neck tension. I also have M dies for most calibers. Won't comment on the "thou shalt not".......except to say it's an opinion and we all know about opinions........

BTW; both Hornady and Speer make excellet HBWCs for the .32s.

Larry Gibson

Boolit Mold Join DateMar 2013LocationMichigan, Still Part of the USA (for now)Posts14

Mine are Speers, but I bought the other guy's WCs for my 38/357 and I'm considering buying his LRNs for my my .380 ACP. That's why I read the blurb on his website. I have Lee dies for all three calibers already and those are the first that I planned to cast when I start casting.

Different tools for different jobs, and a lot of it is preference.

The Lee Powder Thru Expander dies typically have a short (usually TOO short) expander spud and a tapered flaring section at the top of the spud shank, so they are NOT in function like the two-diameter, parallel Lyman M-type expanding die spuds. RCBS expanders, including their cast-specific, order-by-diameter series with interchangable, screw-on expanding tips, are the same way: A long, almost parallel expanding shank with an angled flare at the top.

To tell the truth, the Lee Universal flaring die (they call it an expander, which is a misnomer) is a good tool for some things because it has a gentle taper and can be set to bellmouth just the minimum required to keep the boolit from getting shaved without stretching the mouth too much. The gentle mouth taper also makes it easier to start the boolits by hand without them wobbling around willy-nilly.

The M-type expanders are fine provided that they actually have a first and second step diameter that suits your particular set of circumstances. I find that the second step is often too large, and the first too small for rifle work, although the pistol spuds can be a bit more close to the dimensions I prefer. Also, don't plunge that second step too far into the case as it ruins case tension and can be difficult to remove with only a roll crimp if you go too far.

Just considering the .32 revolver cases, depending on how much the sizer die is reducing the case, how soft your boolits are, how tough the brass is, and how big of a boolit your gun likes, you could get away with just a Lee universal expanding die, or you might be better served with an M-die or RCBS expander to stretch the case back out to where you need it for .002-3" interference fit with the boolit. Do a little measuring to see what you need. There's a sticky thread in the reloading equipment section (IIRC) that gives the exact measurements of the Lyman M die spuds, first and second step. Remember the brass will spring back some, but that will give you an idea of what you need after taking some measurements of sized brass/boolit.

Gear

You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana

Oh, forgot to mention, if you're using hollow base boolits, you might look for an expander that is long enough to expand the case as much as you need as deeply as you need into the case. Lots of expanders are too short to do much for a full-wadcutter, or even heavy-for-caliber plain-based boolits. The case will squish the base of the boolit if it's too tight near where the base will be seated.

HB boolits will expand to fit whatever they encounter as they go through the gun, of course, so you'll have to load, shoot some and see how they do.

Gear

You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana

Boolit Bub Join DateDec 2012Posts23

Different tools for different jobs, and a lot of it is preference.

The Lee Powder Thru Expander dies typically have a short (usually TOO short) expander spud and a tapered flaring section at the top of the spud shank, so they are NOT in function like the two-diameter, parallel Lyman M-type expanding die spuds. RCBS expanders, including their cast-specific, order-by-diameter series with interchangable, screw-on expanding tips, are the same way: A long, almost parallel expanding shank with an angled flare at the top.

To tell the truth, the Lee Universal flaring die (they call it an expander, which is a misnomer) is a good tool for some things because it has a gentle taper and can be set to bellmouth just the minimum required to keep the boolit from getting shaved without stretching the mouth too much. The gentle mouth taper also makes it easier to start the boolits by hand without them wobbling around willy-nilly.

The M-type expanders are fine provided that they actually have a first and second step diameter that suits your particular set of circumstances. I find that the second step is often too large, and the first too small for rifle work, although the pistol spuds can be a bit more close to the dimensions I prefer. Also, don't plunge that second step too far into the case as it ruins case tension and can be difficult to remove with only a roll crimp if you go too far.

Just considering the .32 revolver cases, depending on how much the sizer die is reducing the case, how soft your boolits are, how tough the brass is, and how big of a boolit your gun likes, you could get away with just a Lee universal expanding die, or you might be better served with an M-die or RCBS expander to stretch the case back out to where you need it for .002-3" interference fit with the boolit. Do a little measuring to see what you need. There's a sticky thread in the reloading equipment section (IIRC) that gives the exact measurements of the Lyman M die spuds, first and second step. Remember the brass will spring back some, but that will give you an idea of what you need after taking some measurements of sized brass/boolit.

Gear

Was getting ready to load up some cases when I read this post. My previous cast boolit loading was for my 45acp and my 32S&W. Used Lee dies and never had problems with shaving the base. Good accuracy, as well. But my new project is rifle cartridges. Does the same expander need apply to gas-checked boolits, as well? I hadn't thought of that until I started reading a few minutes ago. Have boolits ready, powder ready, now not sure about cases. These are Berdan primed cases, and I want to see if I can convert them to boxer, like I read in another post on this site. Thanks for any advise.

If the M die was so critical to good cast bullet loads, the Dillon Square Deal wouldn't be able to do what it does so well. I have M dies and an RCBS expanded die but only for rifle loads.

M-dies are not the only solution to this issue. I have loaded literally many hundreds of thousands
cast boolit rounds, and never have owned a M-die. For pistols, all the die sets I have ever seen have
a perfectly serviceable expander with flaring capability. For rifles, which normally do not have a built
in flare, I use the Lee Universal Flare Die. Works fine for me.

I do plan on trying a few M-dies for rifles at some point, but IMO they are pretty much unnecessary for
normal pistol loads. If you are planning on loaded EXTREMELY soft boolits, maybe having a very small
interference fit may be of benefit by not sizing down the boolits as you seat them.

Bill

If it was easy, anybody could do it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading
Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt"

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