I've spent part of the afternoon playing with an old Lyman 429348, 2 cav. mold.Casts real nice, very low percentage of rejects, I could get to like it.
I keep hearing guys say that their new Lyman molds drop small. It isn't just the new ones! This one is dropping .4275-.4282" boolits. They sorta/kinda drag going through a .429 sizer. One would think they were tumble lubed as the outside surface of the driving bands has a thin film of 50-50 over most of the area. The front band seems a bit smaller and there is lube squeezing by that pretty uniformly.
I was hoping to run these in some fairly mild loads in my 3" Bulldog, time will tell if they shoot or not. Alloy is fairly hard, 12 BHN range scrap with about 12-1 Linotype added. That's purely a guess, I add metal in 5 lb ingots and try to put the same size handful of Lino in with each one. Casts real nice and doesn't thumbnail nick much so it should work fine, if the size doesn't cause an issue.
I might try beagling it but I'm a bit confused about that process. Doesn't it make for oval boolits? You're adding with perpendicular to the mold line but with it. My mind says that's going to make the boolit oval. Does the extra metal get squooshed back round in the sizer?
I'll be putting some of these down the tube Thursday at the latest, I'm range officer on the indoor range that evening. If I go up to the club before that I'll take the shooter and some loads and try it then. Plan is for somewhere in the 750-800 fps range, maybe even less if the puny puppy seems unruly in the least.
My daughter is coming around to thinking she would feel more comfortable with a carry gun and this one is the most likely candidate. She is not tolerant of recoil much at all so that may be a problem. I have three relatively light boolit designs to choose from, this Lyman 180, a Lee 214 SWC and a Saeco (#430, IIRC) at around 225 gr RF. Hopefully I can get one of those to shoot to the sights at a low enough recoil level that she won't be afraid to shoot it enough to get good with it.
The only other gun options are my 1911 or 4" Security Six, neither of which are ideal as a handbag gun. Granted the Bulldog isn't ideal either but neither one of us can afford a J-frame or an LCR.
I had bought a Lyman 429348 with the thought of its use in pocket revolvers you are considering. I have not cast with it yet. Working for a living keeps getting in the way, but at least I'm still eating from the fruits of my own labor and no government handout. If this bullet, which seems to be made for just this purpose, give you trouble, first try casting from a real soft alloy with the hope of bullet base upset from a fast burning powder. Past that, I would plan on lapping the mold to get a larger drop. Time consuming, but worth it.
Alloy is fairly hard, 12 BHN range scrap with about 12-1 Linotype added.I'm betting your problem is the alloy; range lead, if of a large quanity of commercial cast and jacketed cores, will have a high antimony content. You then exhasperated the problem by adding linotype which also has a high % of antimony. I'm assuming you added the lino for the tin content but your alloys still has too much antimony and that is causing the thealloy not to fill out in the mould.
I suggest you take the range lead and simply add 2-3 % tin (pure tin or from 50/50 solder). The tin will balance out the antimony already in the range lead and make it go better into solution with the lead. You will end up with a much better ternary alloy that will cast to at least nominal diameter.
Your Lyman mould is made to cast to .429 at least with Lyman's #2 alloy which has a good balance of lead/tin/antimony. If it does not cast to nominal diameter with another alloy, especially one very high in antimony, then it should be considered the fault of the Lyman mould, in my opinion anyway.
I also have a standing offer regards any Lyman mould not casting to nominal diameter. I have posted that offer recently on another thread. if you'd care to take me up on it PM me.
Larry Gibson
Larry is right, forget the lino and add no more than 3% Sn. Cast with no hotter than 725 degrees pot temp with a properly pre-heated mold. Cast at a pace where the boolits just start to frost and Alan and his Lyman mold should be happy campers.Rick
"The people never give up their freedom . . . Except under some delusion." Edmund Burke"Let us remember that if we suffer tamely a lawless attack on our liberty, we encourage it." Samuel Adams
One side is for Liberty and the Constitution and they are called domestic terrorist, anti-American, nazi's and mobsters. Just what is the side using these terms for?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
CRPA Life Member
Everyone loves nice round full sized boolits that drop from their molds but as many have posted most newer molds are no where near as good of quality as the ones form 30 years or longer ago. Yes the alloy content and temperature has a major effect and finished / sized to dia. is a big determining effect as to degree of leading along with powder burn rate,velocity (pressure) bore condition etc., however simple fact is that most self densense shooting are at 20 feet or less and consiste of less than five rounds fired. It takes a gush awful leading problem to have any real effect in these situations.If the cast leads are going to be the carry rounds then going soft and tolerating some leading during practice sessions is not really all that big of a deal IMO. Often one uses hard alloy boolits driven at near max. pressure / velocity levels and end up with over penetration. I know my 135 gr. SWC for my 9MM suffer over penetration to the extreme but they are special purpose rounds .
Way back before there were so many higher performance SD loads to choose from a fairly popular .38 load was a swaged hollow base wad cutter loaded reversed (cavity forward) . Being soft and not having the cavity being able to seal as designed these leaded to the extreme but they sure expanded nicely.
NRA Endowment Member
Vet . 2nd of the 47th 9th.Inf. Viet Nam Mar. 67-68
as many have posted most newer molds are no where near as good of quality as the ones form 30 years or longer ago.It's not really the quality of Lyman moulds that has deteriorated but the quality of COWWs that has deteriorated. I still have a bucket of COWWs from 25 - 30 years ago and they are much better quality than today’s COWWs. Also with the advent of the internet and the popularity increase in casting most don't read Lyman's manuals and use the common advice to just use "wheel weights". There in is the real problem.
If you go back and check almost all the complaints about Lyman moulds, and others BTW, not casting to nominal diameter or some diameter wanted above that the OPs were using WWs for the alloy. 30 years ago the quality of WWs was pretty consistent but the 10 years or so the quality isn't consistent and even varies considerably in different locals across the country. The quality depends on the original percentages of lead/antimony/tin in the COWWs and then when reprocessed (a gob of different makes with different %s) if the maker replenished or added any of the metals to bring them back to original %. Reprocessed COWWs will also have a large % of SOWWs in them the last 10+ years or so and are much softer with lower % of tin/antimony in them. So how does anyone know when smelting old COWWs that they were new ones or reprocessed ones? You don't and thus the quality of the alloy from COWWs is usually low in both antimony and tin but usually very low in tin.
What this means in a mould designed to cast a bullet with Lyman's #2 alloy or linotype is that the bullets will be undersized. It is as simple as that. So should we blame the mould maker for those undersized bullets when it is the user that uses the wrong alloy? I, personally think not which is why I have made my standing offer. I have not bought a single mould yet from that offer BTW. You can mix up the correct alloys (or simply add 2% tin to your batch of COWWs) now and be happy with the mould now as is. Or you can modify the mould or spend $s for a custom mould that casts the right diameter from COWWs now. However, in a few years when COWWs made from lead/tin/antimony are no more you will have to attempt to duplicate the poorer quality ternary alloy of today’s COWWs so that mould will not cast grossly oversized bullets with a correct alloy.
Frankly I think it's a lot easier to simply add 2% tin. Some think tin is expensive but 2% really isn't that much and it's not that expensive. After all at 2% tin to COWWs how much tin can you buy and make how much very good alloy for the price of a modified Lyman (if you have it done right or take a chance and mess it up yourself) mould or a custom mould? Just my thoughts are all.
I've several "newer" Lyman moulds in my collection and have used numerous other "newer" Lyman moulds the last few years. I've not really found any difference in Lyman's quality in the last 45 years I've used "new" Lyman moulds and even when compared to older Lyman and Ideal moulds. Actually I find newer Lyman moulds to be more consistent in quality and in the diameter of bullets cast than older Lyman's and Ideals.
I put my money where my mouth is as my offer on Lyman moulds still stands.
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; Yesterday at 08:11 AM.
Everyone loves nice round full sized boolits that drop from their molds but as many have posted most newer molds are no where near as good of quality as the ones form 30 years or longer ago.I disagree completely. We are currently in the golden age of cast boolits, never have bullet casters had such an incredible variety and QUALITY of molds/bullets to choose from and it seems to just be getting better all the time.Rick
"The people never give up their freedom . . . Except under some delusion." Edmund Burke"Let us remember that if we suffer tamely a lawless attack on our liberty, we encourage it." Samuel Adams
One side is for Liberty and the Constitution and they are called domestic terrorist, anti-American, nazi's and mobsters. Just what is the side using these terms for?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
CRPA Life Member
Not trying to be argumentative but how can excess antimony make the whole boolit cast small yet still give complete fillout on the bands and bases?FWIW, I had the RS tested through the recent offer a member here was running. Being a little bit sneaky I sent two of the samples out of the same pot of RS, casting them only seconds apart. The results are:
sb 1.51, mo .58, bi 3.11, pb 91.99, zn .21, cu .33, fe .72
sb 1.66, sn .33, bi 2.23, pb 92.80, cu .31, fe .88
Those numbers don't make me feel all that warm and fuzzy about the accuracy of the test results.
Anyhow, I poured that pot of metal out (the one from yesterday) and brewed a fresh pot of RS + 2% Sn. Casting at around 700? (I have to say around because that's the average of about 60? swings with the thermostat in my RCBS pot) I got boolits that are now mic'ing .4295-.430". I haven't inspected them closely yet but they appear to be fairly blemish free.
As has been commented on there is not much accuracy needed for defensive use and who cares if they lead. No question about that part of it but I would rather not have to scrub the bore every time it gets shot with these loads either. No way of knowing how many practice rounds will be fired before my daughter reaches any level of proficiency nor how many she will fire in maintaining that level.
I'm off to inspect and size this latest effort, hopefully the problem is gone and once again I am coming away smarter.
I disagree completely. We are currently in the golden age of cast boolits, never have bullet casters had such an incredible variety and QUALITY of molds/bullets to choose from and it seems to just be getting better all the time.Rick
Rick I do not doubt that one can pay over $100 for a custom mole and have a very high quality one however molds which I purchased 30 to 40 years ago were works of art even the really idexpensive 6 cav. Lee ones..Lucky for me I purchased and hung onto mine and honestly my opinion on the new ones are based on what I read here and perhaps all the issues posted about are the operators and or the alloys they are trying to use.
I do have a new Lee 6cav. ordered that should be here tomorrow and will thus be able to see if present quality sucks or not.
I started my trade as a Tool & Die Maker at age 18('63) and had many summers working in the shop prior to this. I averaged working over 60 hours per week on the job for over 40 years and many years had a sideline shop. I spent close to 10 years designing / redesigning commerical printing equipment for two of the largest bank associated printing companies back in the days of Linotype,Monotype and other hot type equipment and presses.
I even made a few molds myself and that was long before CNC equipment came to be. I fully realize that everyone wants precession and bargin prices but it rarely ever happens. Lucky for me I know how and have the ability to tweak a less than perfect mold to atleast make it work as it should have when placed in inventory.
NRA Endowment Member
Vet . 2nd of the 47th 9th.Inf. Viet Nam Mar. 67-68
I've spent part of the afternoon playing with an old Lyman 429348, 2 cav. mold.I keep hearing guys say that their new Lyman molds drop small. It isn't just the new ones! This one is dropping .4275-.4282" boolits.
Anyhow, I poured that pot of metal out (the one from yesterday) and brewed a fresh pot of RS + 2% Sn. Casting at around 700? (I have to say around because that's the average of about 60? swings with the thermostat in my RCBS pot) I got boolits that are now mic'ing .4295-.430".And you thought we were steering you wrong?
They shouldn't lead at all IF they fit the firearm correctly. What are the throat diameters? What is the groove diameter, this is what will tell you if it will lead. If need be lube them with a die that will not size but lube only.
Rick
"The people never give up their freedom . . . Except under some delusion." Edmund Burke"Let us remember that if we suffer tamely a lawless attack on our liberty, we encourage it." Samuel Adams
One side is for Liberty and the Constitution and they are called domestic terrorist, anti-American, nazi's and mobsters. Just what is the side using these terms for?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
CRPA Life Member
brewed a fresh pot of RS + 2% Sn. Casting at around 700? (I have to say around because that's the average of about 60? swings with the thermostat in my RCBS pot) I got boolits that are now mic'ing .4295-.430". I haven't inspected them closely yet but they appear to be fairly blemish free.You may not post new threadsYou may not post repliesYou may not post attachmentsYou may not edit your postsForum RulesAmazing how something that simple works. Obviously I'm not buying that 429348 mould.............
Larry Gibson
Abbreviations used in Reloading
Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt"
0 comments:
Post a Comment